Does ball going into touch put everyone onside?

[crossref]

well, a PK isn't really a zombie ball is it? The ball IS dead, and is brought back into play by kicking it.

isn't that just exactly what we mean by zombie ball? The ball isn't live, but it's not really dead either as one team can immediately play it (or bring it back to life if you like) at will.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

For FK, PK there are also specific laws regarding what opposing players must do in order to be in a position to play the ball (listed in 21.7 and 21.8) with specific guidance about interference. This applies both during that "zombie ball" phase but also after it. Equally for a drop out there is clear guidance for players in the incorrect position not to interfere with play (13.17.(b), "the wrong side of the 22", though I readily admit they may not be offside per se).

While the players in FK, PK and drop out scenarios may not necessarily be "offside" I would argue the cleanest and simplest read across from all of these similar, yet slightly different cases, to the original question is that players who were in offside positions prior to the ball going into touch remain so until put onside by one of the clearly defined methods under 11.2 and 11.3.

Of course, these are different scenarios but I am trying to take the best inference from other laws to make sense of the original question in the simplest form. Maybe I am guilty of "oversimplifying" but I find simpler decisions and explanations are more helpful that convoluted or complicated ones, especially when justifying to players during and even after a game.

 

[OB..]

Loitering is a tricky one, surely loitering only really applies in siuations where the offside player HAS to retire,

The law specifically says "remains in an offside position".

 

[crossref]

. Maybe I am guilty of "oversimplifying" but I find simpler decisions and explanations are more helpful that convoluted or complicated ones, especially when justifying to players during and even after a game.

I agree with that, especially in the sort of scenarios in this thread, where there doesn't seem to be a universally agreed 'correct' answer.

So I agree: make the decision that seems correct to you and explain it simply and concisely.

I guess what the thread is for is to get a sense of what other refs think and while we don't have complete agreement, perhaps what emerges is what most of us do.

 

[didds]

isn't that just exactly what we mean by zombie ball? The ball isn't live, but it's not really dead either as one team can immediately play it (or bring it back to life if you like) at will.

In which case you would then also include not only PK and FK and QTI but also 22 DO & half way restart kicks, conversions and quick lineouts (ie throwing side is ready but defenders are not). I suppose you could add to that the times when the ref does not allow otherwise zombie balls to be started. And even then when he whistles play back on (or whatever) the ball then re-enters zombie state - the side in possession at the Fk/PK/lineout/qti/restart can still choose the time of making the ball live again.

Or put another way really the only times the ball is dead but not zombie is immediately prior to each half and scrummages. So the ball is in a zombie state far more often than actually dead.

didds

 

[crossref]

In which case you would then also include not only PK and FK and QTI but also 22 DO & half way restart kicks, conversions and quick lineouts (ie throwing side is ready but defenders are not).

Or put another way really the only times the ball is dead but not zombie is immediately prior to each half and scrummages. So the ball is in a zombie state far more often than actually dead.

didds

yes, it's often zombie.

as well as when a scrum is awarded, it's also completely dead when it's in touch and no QTI is possible.
also after a try is awarded.
also at PK once a referee stops play to award a card or a bollocking

restarts I'd say the ball is dead. you can't realistically start the game by surprise, given you have to run 50m first, and also I am of the school that you can't take a restart unless both teams are in the right part of the pitch.

similarly I don't believe in quick line outs, in the sense of line outs that take place without the oppo realising a line out is happening.

On this topic here's the regs on replacements from one of the leagues I ref in

b) Replacements may only be made at the following stoppages in play when the ball is dead:
1) Scrummage
2) Line Out, except where the throwing in side opts to take a quick throw-in.
3) Immediately following a successful kick at goal, i.e. penalty kick, drop goal.
4) 22m Drop-out, excepting where the kicking side opts to take a quick drop-out.
5) Half-time.

This effectively lists the times when the ball is really dead. Other times we have zombie balls, the ball isn't completely dead and you can't make a sub.

 

[ChrisR]

I think the clearest and simplest approach is to consider what action you'd take if the ball didn't go into touch but was fielded and subsequently passed.

Players on the kickers team in an offside position who continued to advance before the QTI would be liable for penalty. Players within 10m of the QTI must retire and cannot be put onside by any action of the receiving team.

 

[crossref]

I think the clearest and simplest approach is to consider what action you'd take if the ball didn't go into touch but was fielded and subsequently passed.

Players on the kickers team in an offside position who continued to advance before the QTI would be liable for penalty. Players within 10m of the QTI must retire and cannot be put onside by any action of the receiving team.

but you haven't answered the difficult case.

blue kick, and an offside blue player, not caught by the 10m law, just stops where he is, as he's allowed to.

ball goes into touch, can the blue player now advance to defend the possible QTI? or does he still have wait until he is played onside?

red take a QTI, can he advance now? or does he STILL have wait until he is played onside?

 

[OB..]

Or put another way really the only times the ball is dead but not zombie is immediately prior to each half and scrummages. So the ball is in a zombie state far more often than actually dead.

didds

At a scrum, play cannot restart without action from the referee. Referees can also stop play to consult with a TJ/AR, to deal with an injury, to award a card, etc.

 

[didds]

it's also completely dead when it's in touch and no QTI is possible..

I disagree - in that if the throwing in team have all their ducks in a row they can just throw the ball in. They have started the game at their own "pace".

So its as much a zombie as a PK etc.

didds

 

[didds]

At a scrum, play cannot restart without action from the referee..

Yes. Which is why in said it isn't zombie.

"Or put another way really the only times the ball is dead but not zombie is immediately prior to each half and scrummages."

And to which I had also added

" I suppose you could add to that the times when the ref does not allow otherwise zombie balls to be started. And even then when he whistles play back on (or whatever) the ball then re-enters zombie state - the side in possession at the Fk/PK/lineout/qti/restart can still choose the time of making the ball live again."

didds

 

[didds]

restarts I'd say the ball is dead. you can't realistically start the game by surprise, given you have to run 50m first, and also I am of the school that you can't take a restart unless both teams are in the right part of the pitch..

that's your interpretation though. AIUI this isn't expressly stated in the laws and we have debated this here.

didds

 

[crossref]

that's your interpretation though. AIUI this isn't expressly stated in the laws and we have debated this here.

didds

indeed.

In practice though I think most people DO regard the period after a kick, and before the restart as truly dead time, and therefore a suitable time to bring back a YC player, have a quick game-management word with a captain, allow replacements, etc and whatever.


But yes I agree -- if you are a referee who is in the surprise-restart camp, then you would regard this period as zombie ball, where the game could restart with no warning and by surprise, and therefore NOT a time for all the above, as the ball isn't dead.

It's the same thing for a surprise line-out. If you are a ref who thinks that a surprise line out is possible, then this is also a zombie ball scenario.

 

[OB..]

There is an important distinction between going offside and being offside.

At a ruck there are a couple of offside lines through the hindmost feet. When the ball comes out, players behind the relevant line can no longer become offside by crossing that line, but players already in front of it are still offside. Therefore the line has not disappeared (in theory, though in practice it may quickly become hard to identify it).

When the ball goes into touch it surely makes sense to maintain that distinction: any relevant offside lines remain, though players who were onside are no longer affected by them.

Otherwise you can get this scenario: Red 14 (onside) chases a kick. Blue 15 catches it and kicks just before Red 14 reaches him, so Red 14 starts to retreat. Red 15 catches and kicks the ball into touch just short of the point red 14 has reached. If the offside lines disappear, red 14 is now onside and can legally interfere with a QTI (as long as he allows the ball to be thrown to the 5 metre line).

 

[KML1]

Erm.. thanks everyone!

Will send my question to the RFU Laws box created for just such things! Thanks Crossref for the original reply - that was indeed what I remembered but it wasnt in the Law Clarifications area!

 

[crossref]

Erm.. thanks everyone!

Will send my question to the RFU Laws box created for just such things! Thanks Crossref for the original reply - that was indeed what I remembered but it wasnt in the Law Clarifications area!

KML - please share the reply --- also would be really useful if your question somehow covered all the permutations

1 offside players already moving forward before ball goes into touch
2 offside players who remain stationary, but then move forward AFTER the ball goes into touch
3 offside players who remain stationary, are ahead of the LoT, move backward to contest the QTI

for all three we then get two questions

A - are they free to contest a possible QTI
B - if a QTI is taken, are they free to now move forward and/or immediately tackle the recipient

 

[Dickie E]

but the IRB explicitly tell us that it's an offence for offside players to contest the QTI,

Can you share that please? - might help clear this up.

 

[crossref]

it's above -- but it doesn't completely clean it up as there is no commentary or texts so opinions differ as to what exactly they meant.

anyway it's clear that at least some off-side players remain offside and cannot contest the QTI.

Here's the IRB guidance that KML recalls -- it's #2 here

[LAWS]Offside when the the ball is kicked into touch, thereby preventing quick throw ins
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=5
[/LAWS]

 

[Dickie E]

it's above -- but it doesn't completely clean it up as there is no commentary or texts so opinions differ as to what exactly they meant.

anyway it's clear that at least some off-side players remain offside and cannot contest the QTI.

Here's the IRB guidance that KML recalls -- it's #2 here

[LAWS]Offside when the the ball is kicked into touch, thereby preventing quick throw ins
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=5
[/LAWS]

OK. Consider this:

in the All Blacks video there are 5 players that WR has deemed are acting illegally (they each have a red arrow pointing to them). What do they have in common? They are all moving forward before the ball goes into touch.

in the Fiji video there is only 1 player with a red arrow pointing to him while the other Fiji loiterers do not. Why is this the case? In my view it is because he is the only Fiji player who is not entitled to contest for the QTI and that is because he was offside under to 10 metre rule before the ball went into touch (WR also superimpose a red line across the pitch to indicate this).

 

[Dickie E]

While I may be being too literal and pernickety, I would argue these points (my bolding) are the key differentiators. The "zombie ball" out of the FOP may not be dead in the same sense as after a defensive touch down and the ref has blown.

In your case, would I penalise if the full back threw the ball to the 10 before I had to time blow for the 22? Probably not, so it's an interesting point you raise. But there is a key difference for me is that for a defensive grounding in goal, we would never wait and see what happens in the same way we do with a kick to touch which has be gathered out of the FOP by the opposing team. It is widely understood the ref will blow his whistle and play will stop for the former. The same is not true for the latter, it is generally understood the ball remains live until the whistle is blown.

I just feel that the easiest / least complicated option is usually the best. For the original "grey area", for me it makes sense for these player to remain offside until put onside under one of the standard methods, or until the whistle is blown for the line out. No room for complications etc, just nice and easy.:smile:

I infer from your post that you think a referee shouldn't blow his whistle when the ball goes into touch if a QTI is possible. Why do you think that?

Law 6.A.8 says:
[LAWS](e) The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.
[/LAWS]