eng v samoa tip tackle

[didds]

How the proverbial is the Samoan player still on the pitch after the the tip tackle on brown?

Clear red!

Didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

I don't agree

Brown was landed flat on his back, not head & shoulders first,

YC at most

 

[didds]

So why didn't he get a YC?

Didds

 

[Rushforth]

I don't agree

Brown was landed flat on his back, not head & shoulders first,

YC at most

Agreed. The feet went up, but the torso stayed level.

Minimum PK though, had a try not been scored?

 

[Rushforth]

Clear Yellow there for the high.

 

[The Fat]

Clear Yellow there for the high.

It took approximately 8 replays to determine if it was "clear".

When I'm refereeing, I tell players that a high tackle is anything above the arm pits. Therefore, the line of the shoulders is the lower part of the shoulders.

Unfortunately, the LoTG do not stipulate that interpretation.

A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent’s neck or head is dangerous play.

In the tackle you refer to, the shoulders of the England player are visible above the Samoan #12's arms during contact. They had to replay it over and over to come to a decision. Not so clear and obvious and debatable if it was in fact illegal as per the LoTG.

 

[Rushforth]

In the tackle you refer to, the shoulders of the England player are visible above the Samoan #12's arms during contact. They had to replay it over and over to come to a decision. Not so clear and obvious and debatable if it was in fact illegal as per the LoTG.

The shoulder may have been visible, but the fact is - from the first replay if not before - the arm of the tackler contacted the jaw of the ball carrier. My opinion - unjustified as it may be - is that the jaw is part of the head.

I don't know if any kind of warning was given for the tip tackler (as per OP), but if it was then the YC was clear and obvious, and the only genuine reason to watch 8 replays is to make sure that it really was "beyond reasonable doubt".

 

[crossref]

I don't agree

Brown was landed flat on his back, not head & shoulders first,

YC at most

Law (or guidance) reference for that? Does that make a difference..

 

[Rushforth]

Law (or guidance) reference for that? Does that make a difference..

I did my IRB L2 "lectures" last weekend, and clearly not RC, therefore YC at most seems consistent.

 

[crossref]

It seems common sense, but is there any written guidance that says shoulders = RC but back = YC

 

[Rushforth]

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/03/30...practical-demonstration-of-the-tip-tackle-law

 

[didds]

Ok - I haven;t re-seen the tackle yet so i'll go with you guys saying it WAS MB's back that hit the ground first (and agreed that that is a YC indeed).

is this the elephant in the room though? So why didn't the tackler get a YC? Ref had already said to the TMO also look at the dump tackle.

Didds

 

[crossref]

We have been around this loop many times, we know the definition of a tip tackle, it's in the laws, but there doesn't seem to any longer be any published guidelines, consistent practice around cards.

The Law says 'upper body' so shoulder is same as head.
The old 2009 memo (no longer on the irb website) didn't distinguish head or shoulder in terms of card.
Perhaps there is a new, secret memo somewhere

 

[Jacko]

Ok - I haven;t re-seen the tackle yet so i'll go with you guys saying it WAS MB's back that hit the ground first (and agreed that that is a YC indeed).

is this the elephant in the room though? So why didn't the tackler get a YC? Ref had already said to the TMO also look at the dump tackle.

Didds

No he didn't. Ref asked to look at potential forward pass. TMO suggested he also consider obstruction. While looking at the replays, AR (Leighton Hodges by the sound of it) asked if ref was happy with the potential tip tackle. Ref never acknowledged this input and AR didn't press the point.

 

[Ian_Cook]

No he didn't. Ref asked to look at potential forward pass. TMO suggested he also consider obstruction. While looking at the replays, AR (Leighton Hodges by the sound of it) asked if ref was happy with the potential tip tackle. Ref never acknowledged this input and AR didn't press the point.

Yep, that's how it read to me

The more I look at it, the more I think Brown's first point of contact with the ground was his arse. It might not have even been a PK. It looked more like a dump tackle than a tip tackle,

 

[menace]

We have been around this loop many times, we know the definition of a tip tackle, it's in the laws, but there doesn't seem to any longer be any published guidelines, consistent practice around cards.

The Law says 'upper body' so shoulder is same as head.
The old 2009 memo (no longer on the irb website) didn't distinguish head or shoulder in terms of card.
Perhaps there is a new, secret memo somewhere

We get the secret memo every year in our ARU game management guidelines. :wink:

" Lifting tackles that place players in danger of injury must have serious consequences. The onus is on the tackler to complete the tackle safely. Dropping or throwing tackled players once they are in a dangerous position is to be strongly sanctioned.
• Any time a tackled player's legs are lifted above horizontal it should result in a yellow card as a minimum.
• If the tackled player is lifted and lands on his shoulder or head area it should result in a red card. A tackled player placing a hand down at the last second to stop a 'head or shoulder area landing' should not influence this sanction."

 

[didds]

so basically a tip-tackler gets lucky if their actions end up with the tackled player hitting the ground fiorst with a scapula rather than a shoulder/head, which is total luck or depends upon the tip-tackled player moving and thus saving the tackler form a RC?

Maybe next time the tip-tackler won;t be so lucky - and maybe next time there is a broken neck.

Winner.

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

so basically a tip-tackler gets lucky if their actions end up with the tackled player hitting the ground fiorst with a scapula rather than a shoulder/head, which is total luck or depends upon the tip-tackled player moving and thus saving the tackler form a RC?

Maybe next time the tip-tackler won;t be so lucky - and maybe next time there is a broken neck.

Winner.

didds

That sounds like a cynical view didds.

I think it is far more likely that the degree of "tipping" of the ball carrier will be influenced more by the actions of the tackler than himself. Once the ball carrier is off his feet, he is pretty much powerless to do anything other than try to get his arm(s) down to protect himself, and as menace points out, that is not a mitigating factor.

 

[menace]

Short answer? Yes.

Long answer. I think thats why any lift tackle past horizontal is supposed to automatically yield a YC even if put down safely. It's supposed to discourage any lift and turn. Also it depends on the referees judgment on what they see.

As for me, having had a broken neck and back (think same injury as Mcabe but from different sport), anything close to landing back and upper torso finds the RC exiting my pocket. I put my report in and then let the judiciary decide (and if there is DVd then they can watch it to their hearts content).

But as we all know, in show rugby, with their 1 million replays , will crucify a referee if they deviate away from the guideline and send someone from the field.

 

[crossref]

We get the secret memo every year in our ARU game management guidelines. :wink:

" Lifting tackles that place players in danger of injury must have serious consequences. The onus is on the tackler to complete the tackle safely. Dropping or throwing tackled players once they are in a dangerous position is to be strongly sanctioned.
• Any time a tackled player's legs are lifted above horizontal it should result in a yellow card as a minimum.
• If the tackled player is lifted and lands on his shoulder or head area it should result in a red card. A tackled player placing a hand down at the last second to stop a 'head or shoulder area landing' should not influence this sanction."

so in those guideline - landing on the shoulder is no different from landing on the head.