[Law] England Women vs Wales Women - player off feet playing ball

[ACUSmember]

Was watching England women against Wales at the weekend.

Kick ahead by white finds space, red 15 makes a bit of a hash at trying to gather it and ends up off feet. White 14 arrives, and stays on her feet. To my mind, red 15 gathers the ball whilst off her feet preventing white 14 from playing it (contrary to law 13.3). Even if we allow that red 15 ended up with the ball legally whilst off her feet, she then clings on (contrary to law 13.1) - to the extent white 14 (on her feet) is lifting ball and torso of red 15 (off her feet) off the floor. Two other red players arrive, and force white 14/red 15 into touch.

Ref / assistant ref have brief confab (sadly drowned out by commentators) and award a line-out to white.

Watching with admittedly white-tinted glasses, I am still unclear how it wasn't a penalty to white. Did the other welsh players force everyone into touch fast enough for it to be deemed immaterial? Or am I wrong somewhere in my analysis?

https://youtu.be/TX43j8Q2DUA?t=4506

 

[didds]

that a PK, and in that positiuon p[ossibly also a YC. There is nobody home if England have the ball. I'm not calling a PT, buit there is significant advantage availale to be acrrued with white possession at that juncture.


didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Sympathetic refereeing?

Women against girls. PK and possible YC normally.

 

[didds]

so the ref iwas "evening up" the game?

at international level?

didds

 

[Pablo]

With red-tinted specs, that’s a penalty. Definitely not a PT. Maybe a YC - could accept either way, depending on wider tone of the match.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

so the ref iwas "evening up" the game?

at international level?

didds

I don't know hense the use of question. I 'd say, in view of the massive gulf in class between the two some sympathy might be in evidence.

Sadly the Welsh women's game is a very long way behind "interntional standard".

Did they have TMO facilities. From the ref and the ARs angle the playing on the ground may not have been C & O. For a TMO it would have been very obvious.

 

[didds]

Did they have TMO facilities. From the ref and the ARs angle the playing on the ground may not have been C & O. For a TMO it would have been very obvious.

I get your point Marc, but we've all seen it, and called it, in real time.

TBH Id expect something as balatnt as that to be called at level 8 (if not all levels!)

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

Video not available for me, but PK and it sounds like a good chance of YC.

 

[ACUSmember]

I don't know hense the use of question. I 'd say, in view of the massive gulf in class between the two some sympathy might be in evidence.

Sadly the Welsh women's game is a very long way behind "interntional standard".

Did they have TMO facilities. From the ref and the ARs angle the playing on the ground may not have been C & O. For a TMO it would have been very obvious.

There was TMO, although the only time I can recall him being involved was in the penalty try awarded to Wales in the 2nd half along with a yellow card to an England player for an early tackle - and (whilst it was at the more obvious end of the spectrum) the referee Amber McLachlan reached that decision herself off the back of one replay without need for any guidance - and since I've been implicitly critical of her by drawing attention to the first incident, it's only fair to say I thought she handled the penalty try very well.

Penalty try incident: https://youtu.be/TX43j8Q2DUA?t=7017

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I get your point Marc, but we've all seen it, and called it, in real time.

TBH Id expect something as balatnt as that to be called at level 8 (if not all levels!)

didds

Our angle, on TV, is not necessarily the same as that the referee and AR had.

 

[didds]

well

- I see a red player not on her feet holding the ball.
- I see a white player on their feet hoilding the ball.
- I see white pulling ferociously at the ball, to the extent that red player is "bouncing" up and down with the efforts.
- I see an AR standing only feet away

I get what you say. But this wasn't a highly populated area wrt players at the time (three red and two white including the two ball holders at the time) and 2nd white was back from the action. The AR was immediately adjacent with an unobstucted view and the action was very evident - this wasn't a hidden scarmble on the floor with jacklers and sealers obscuring a view.

Appreciating stills are only that nonetheless this shows the relative positions and openess of view etc for the AR




didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

That's after the initial pick up. So pretty irrelevant. Welsh girl is not on the floor in that picture. Clear daylight under her backside. So about as much use as a choco teapot.

 

[Rich_NL]

So in context of the situation described in the OP, you're saying that the Welsh player isn't playing on the ground/holding on to the ball because her backside has been lifted off the grass?

 

[didds]

I get Marc's point and as a still (hence my comment) all tyat des indeed show is somebody NOt oin the ground holding the ball.

the video at #1 is probably better to see it of course but here';s the very start of that sequence as a still



red on ground white claiming ball.

video here
https://youtu.be/TX43j8Q2DUA?t=4506

red never lets go of the ball, white pulls ball up and red stays holding it.

So unless there is an interpretation that I am unaware of wherebvy white pulling reed to their feet via holding on while on the ground now nullifies holding on on the ground - maybe that is the case? - that looks like a PK to me still.

Happy to be informed that red can in fact become OK if lifted via ball holding while on the ground.

didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So in context of the situation described in the OP, you're saying that the Welsh player isn't playing on the ground/holding on to the ball because her backside has been lifted off the grass?

No I said the still phote sho a player not off their feet. SO not the image that the postr wanted. The moral of the story is a still is useless in evidence.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I get Marc's point and as a still (hence my comment) all tyat des indeed show is somebody NOt oin the ground holding the ball.

the video at #1 is probably better to see it of course but here';s the very start of that sequence as a still

View attachment 4015

red on ground white claiming ball.

video here
https://youtu.be/TX43j8Q2DUA?t=4506

red never lets go of the ball, white pulls ball up and red stays holding it.

So unless there is an interpretation that I am unaware of wherebvy white pulling reed to their feet via holding on while on the ground now nullifies holding on on the ground - maybe that is the case? - that looks like a PK to me still.

Happy to be informed that red can in fact become OK if lifted via ball holding while on the ground.

didds

No she can't and that was not the point. The still was the video did not show the time in question , it was after the event. We know from what we could see that the Welsh player was illegal. But the only view that matters is the view of the To3. The referee, almost certainly was unsighted. I would have though the AR probalby has a fair sight of things . But, as she has her back to us I can say for certain that she did.

THAT is the point. To say they Should have seen it is a brave comment. And an easy one from the arm chair. Dancing bear and all that!

 

[Rich_NL]

I don't think it's unnecessarily unsympathetic to assume that an experienced (assistant) referee, standing 2m from a player playing the ball on the ground, facing directly towards it with nothing intervening between them, would observe an offence. It seems uncharacteristically pedantic to suggest otherwise, really.

It's definitely worth noting, however, that YouTube has a wicked sense of humour in the adverts its algorithm selects to show along the bottom of the screen

 

[didds]

THAT is the point. To say they Should have seen it is a brave comment. And an easy one from the arm chair. Dancing bear and all that!

Ok - I'll rephrase.

I am somewhat surprised that the AR didnt see it given her immedite proximity

didds

- - - Updated - - -

It's definitely worth noting, however, that YouTube has a wicked sense of humour in the adverts its algorithm selects to show along the bottom of the screen

LOL LOL

 

[BikingBud]

Sympathetic refereeing?

Women against girls. PK and possible YC normally.

I seem to remember getting a right old spanking for using such terms:chin: when discussing differing applications of the same laws:

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?21391-Application-of-Laws

 

[crossref]

Not sure why we would want to revisit that !
But Marc's usage was different, he was echoing the regular phrase Men against boys. To mean that the teams were mismatched.