Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

[Accylad]

My first game (L7 v L6 but both teams short of their full normal packs and their first game with C-B-S) revealed to me the need for zero tolerance of any hint of an early shove to which I will return shortly....

I chose to invite the entire team to listen to the front row PMB so that they all had a better idea of what was going on even if they could not hear me. They all stayed.

As said earlier, quite a lot of FK for not straight and some incredulous looks from the four different 9's who had a go. "Really sir, straighter than that??"

I did penalise a couple of early shoves and in the bar afterwards I had a really good chat with the front rows about managment of this area. What I have concluded as a result is:

Particularly in the settling down phase of the season lots of props will find it hard to adapt to the change and will push early moving the other team off the mark even if only by a small margin. This will be resisited by the opposition but the scrum will almost certainly settle down. HOWEVER, the prop who had the marginally early shove against him is quite likely next time to seek to get his slightly early shove in first. He will be so strong/early that he gets pinged. Discontent with referee management of the scrum could begin to build. My feeling is that this has to be nipped in the bud by firmly stamping out any hint of the early push at firrst sight.

There will remain the difficulty in reading a natural settling down after the set without a push from one with a push......

 

[irishref]

First season experience yesterday, reffed at a tournament in the Netherlands with a mixture of Dutch teams (premier league down to the third division hosts), couple of (flemish) Belgian teams and German team. Plus 4 Dutch ladies teams. 15-a-side, 12 minutes per half.

Results: personally pinged 2 not straight put ins, 3 foot ups by hookers and 1 deliberate wheel. Saw plenty of deliberate wheeling in games I was running touch for but don't recall any collapses, intentional or not.

Bigger front rows ruling the roost, the days of the small but wiley Tighthead prop getting under his opponent are gone, back to huge units only in the front row methinks.

 

[SimonSmith]

I guess that other than Adam, taff426 and andyscott nobody was out testing the changes. Instead they were all worrying about the channels of communication.

Or waiting for games to actually start.
Or waiting for games to actually start whilst spending all day at the new GU AGM and then all evening at the MARR referee development meeting

 

[winchesterref]

Bigger front rows ruling the roost, the days of the small but wiley Tighthead prop getting under his opponent are gone, back to huge units only in the front row methinks.

I think this too, others seem to think we will breed league style front rows but I just can't see it myself. The big unit is always going to have a place in a pushing contest!

 

[Dixie]

Most satisfactorily, I noted as I checked into SimonSmith's update that this thread had had 666 views. Mr Moore and his impressively intimidating avatar have become Darth Insidious!

 

[PaulDG]

I think this too, others seem to think we will breed league style front rows but I just can't see it myself. The big unit is always going to have a place in a pushing contest!

Like you, I see this as the exact opposite.

If this works, by which I mean if the elite refs really do impose it, this is taking us back to "proper union".

 

[Felk]

I'm sorry but this is so wrong. It's the exact opposite. My whole career I've been a prop I've seen all eras. The pre the ref getting involved in the set (the best era) to the first instructed scrums which if memory serves correct where Crouch hold engage then crouch touch pause engage (the worst era) crouch touch set and now. I've been saying for weeks now that the days of the 6'3" props are over, they are now too tall just as they were 20 years ago. The Chilcott, Sole, Probyn style front rows will return, yes they will be stronger but that's down to professionalism and sports science not law changes.


Im lucky to have played for so long but I'm sure that if the big ram engages had been in place when I was playing in London 1 and especially in Army rugby I would not have lasted as long. It's interesting to note too that is finally a shoulder injury that has played a part in me stopping, though to be honest age is the main factor.


Something needed to be done. Give this a chance. I've been coaching it for weeks now and it does have its issues but scrummaging always has. It's wrong to look back to the 80's and 90's and think it was perfect because it wasn't. I used to cheat, I was a sleeve and tuck man. Front row players always will get inventive, it's part of the charm.


This latest move has probably saved the Rugby Union Scrum because I believe we were only one or two major injuries away from Rugby League style scrums and that would have killed the game for all sizes ethos we love. Look how legally the collapsing the maul era changed things for a while (whoever thought that was a good idea).


As you know I'm new to the whistle and I'm looking forward to next season more than I have for many years. It's up to us refs now to make this right and we can if we do what is asked. No ram, scrum straight and square, no ball in til it is, straight feed and no early push.


It's simple guys and girls, give it a chance, make it work and save our scrums.

 

[andyscott]

I am tempted to agree with andyscott (Christ I never thought I'd say that)

Ah so you can teach and old dog new tricks

be quiet now will you; there's a good gentleman.

 

[Rushforth]

It's simple guys and girls, give it a chance, make it work and save our scrums.

Excellent post, fine conclusion.

I was primarily a hooker in the pre-hit days, and stopped playing (primarily) as a prop due to the hit a few years ago. I didn't cheat as such - or rather I thought I was cheating when I'd kick the ball hoping for a rebound, but that's only illegal in 7s it turns out - but as you can imagine a hooker playing at prop against a man 50% heavier gets inventive too!

On a completely different note, apparently some scrum-halves can be inventive too. They may put the ball in "straight", but even if they do so from just half a foot to the right of the line of shoulders, they will be giving a massive advantage to their own hooker, over and above that of being able to time the strike.

 

[ChrisR]

From irishref "Results: personally pinged 2 not straight put ins, 3 foot ups by hookers and 1 deliberate wheel."

Why did you ping the deliberate wheel?

 

[Simon Thomas]

1 deliberate wheel. Saw plenty of deliberate wheeling in games I was running touch for

deliberate wheels are in themselves totally legal, unless the technique (e.g. pulling on) itself is ilegal. The FR bretheren amongst us will have plenty of legal techniques to tell us about.

 

[Blackberry]

I reckon these laws are pretty good. They have been caused by a problem which didn't exist much at our level, but will bring back a much more competitive element to the scrums. To me, once the teething troubles are past, the on going problem area is going to be the time between the set and the ball coming in. Under law, both sides should remain inactive till the ball leaves the hookers hands. This may take some serious re-education, unless players are allowed to compete in binding and positioning till the sh puts it in. I hope not.

What I don't hear however are refs briefing about this period after the set, so unless the societies get a common interpretation there will be inconsistencies and conflict.

 

[PaulDG]

From irishref "Results: personally pinged 2 not straight put ins, 3 foot ups by hookers and 1 deliberate wheel."

Why did you ping the deliberate wheel?

Because, at low level games, that's generally the advice. Deliberate wheeling normally means one side is totally stuffing the other - and, when that's the case, if it's the side that's on top doing the wheeling then it's safest for all concerned if they "stop mucking about and push straight".

If it's the side that's getting stuffed doing the wheeling (rare), then they frustrate the [stronger] opposition and that causes flash points.

Yes we want a fair contest within the law; yes the law allows for wheeling.

But we also want the whole pack in a condition to go to work on Monday.

 

[Taff]

From irishref "Results: personally pinged 2 not straight put ins, 3 foot ups by hookers and 1 deliberate wheel."

Why did you ping the deliberate wheel?

What age were they?

Deliberately wheeling a scrum at U19 is a PK offence. At Senior Level it is allowed, as long as the FR don't pull the opposition round.

 

[Toby Warren]

Did a training match at my club (L11) last night.

Overall they were in favour - liked it and it worked well. With one problem.

In 20 scrums c6 went straight out the tunnel - neither hooker could strike for the ball.

After 10-12 scrums the defending hooker worked out that striking for the ball was once again a worth while exercise - even if he kicked it forward it could cause distuption.

 

[Taff]

... Overall they were in favour - liked it and it worked well. With one problem. In 20 scrums c6 went straight out the tunnel - neither hooker could strike for the ball.

Why couldn't they strike for the ball? :chin:

... After 10-12 scrums the defending hooker worked out that striking for the ball was once again a worth while exercise.

I like the sound of it already. :biggrin:

 

[SimonSmith]

Why couldn't they strike for the ball? :chin:

When FR just concentrated on the hit, 'hooking' was easier.

As we go back to old fashioned scrummaging, the ability of the defending hooker to angle himself to put pressure on the striking hooker that makes it difficult to actually swing a leg grows.

I speak from experience. When I, as a 17 year old stripling, hooked for the local men's side, I was not versed in the ways of man, and this is what happened to me. My opponent came in ever so slightly on an angle and got his head to pressure me in such a way that I couldn't strike. I told me (wily old) props and they suggested loosening our bind ever so slightly so he would fall down and we would walk over him #happydays

 

[Toby Warren]

They couldn't because the concept was alien to them.

They had to be introduced to the concept of the 9 tapping the ball on the hooker's hand and hookers tap etc etc

 

[Waspsfan]

They have never had to hook - at level 11?

 

[Browner]

Because, at low level games, that's generally the advice. Deliberate wheeling normally means one side is totally stuffing the other - and, when that's the case, if it's the side that's on top doing the wheeling then it's safest for all concerned if they "stop mucking about and push straight".

If it's the side that's getting stuffed doing the wheeling (rare), then they frustrate the [stronger] opposition and that causes flash points.

Yes we want a fair contest within the law; yes the law allows for wheeling.

But we also want the whole pack in a condition to go to work on Monday.

You're wrong to penalise wheeling unless another Law is being infringed [say 20.8[g] ....pulling]. It's a legitimate scrummaging tactic, ......... that said, the put in becomes less relevant if the hooking foot isn't lifted by either hooker [before the ball leaves the hands of the SH] that's the fair contest we seek !