Eyes in the back of my head!

Stormkahn

New member
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
47
Post Likes
4
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Welcome back to the next question from the noob :chin:

So this week I blew for an offense that I didn't actually see with my own eyes. The scum half passed from the base of the ruck, 1st receiver was a good 8-10 yards away and a defender tackled him so quickly there was absolutely no way he was on side to start with...unless he can teleport. The problem was I was facing the ruck and didn't actually see him start from an off side position. This wasn't challenged by anybody.

Do I actually have to see the offense in order to blow?

Can you point me in the direction of resources on positioning?

cheers,

Dave.
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Ok ok ok. You loose your integrity as a referee if you do that. What I might suggest is positioning at the breakdown. Use a 1,2,3 approach.
1. Get in identify the ball and ensure the buggers arrive on their feet.
2. Get out a little bit to have a good overall veiw of the breakdown area but ensure your chest is pointing towards the defensive post with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward
3. Get out more and flatten yourself to the defensive line so you can control the offside better but still using the above.

Hope this helps with the positioning. Always always a no no Giving decisions you don't see.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,816
Post Likes
3,154
Always always a no no Giving decisions you don't see.

always always?

I am not so sure, on saturday scrum half threw a poor, very long, pass that arrived at ankle height. As the 10 bent down to try and gather the pass, just at the critical moment a player got between me and the ball blocking my view, so I couldn't see 10 knock it on, what I could see the ball bounce forwards on to the ground, and all the players (from both teams) stop momentarily , reacting to the knock on.
- Should I call knock on as they were all expecting ?
- Certainly a call of "play on" would have been a surprise to everyone, and what my reason for saying play on ?
- Or ignore it completely and pretend I hadn't seen anything at all?
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
always always?

I am not so sure, on saturday scrum half threw a poor, very long, pass that arrived at ankle height. As the 10 bent down to try and gather the pass, just at the critical moment a player got between me and the ball blocking my view, so I couldn't see 10 knock it on, what I could see the ball bounce forwards on to the ground, and all the players (from both teams) stop momentarily , reacting to the knock on.
- Should I call knock on as they were all expecting ?
- Certainly a call of "play on" would have been a surprise to everyone, and what my reason for saying play on ?
- Or ignore it completely and pretend I hadn't seen anything at all?

Or

you hear a "thwack" & a "oi you dirty *******" ..... You immediatedly spin round and see a player fall to the floor with his nose spewing blood while his opponent is over the top of him with fist still cocked ...... I didn't see what started it, or the thwack being delivered...... But Mr Fist Cocked is gonna walk ...surely?
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I think the TMO descision not to award the penalty in the Leinster match proves not everything is how you didn't see it. Again integrity is key.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,816
Post Likes
3,154
I think the TMO descision not to award the penalty in the Leinster match proves not everything is how you didn't see it. Again integrity is key.

so how would you handle my example in #3 - loud shout of "play on, couldn't see it!" ?
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Did you see it?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Expert
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
With the proviso that you never ever say never. Never give what you do not see (without AR / TMO).
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,816
Post Likes
3,154
With the proviso that you never ever say never. Never give what you do not see (without AR / TMO).

I get you both.
So ... in scenario in post #3, what the ref should do is ...... ?
 

tim White


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
2,010
Post Likes
269
"with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward " ????????????
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Supposed to of said. Your inner most leg to the breakdown. Naturally opens your body up to the defensive line
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,209
Post Likes
2,205
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
'clear and obvious' trumps 'didn't see'
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
If you didn't see it isn't clear.
 

Daftmedic


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
1,341
Post Likes
113
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Leinster v Quinn's. Red thought he saw a hand in. TMO And ref agreed it was a knock on. What he thought he saw was completely different to what actually happened. If you start making calls you don't properly see you leave yourself open to question. Am I the only one here that thinks integrity is paramount.
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
2. Get out a little bit to have a good overall veiw of the breakdown area but ensure your chest is pointing towards the defensive post with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward

DaftMedic, I think you have mistaken this for one of your hospital's Strip Twister forums!

For the OP, there will be times when you guess - and in perhaps 50% of those occasions you will be wrong. That doesn't mean that you were wrong to go with your gut, but it does mean that your gut will lead you astray quite often - and when it does, you risk losing the respect of the players. In my experience, they will accept more readily an honest call of "unsighted! Play On!".

As you identify, the key here is positioning so you will have to rely on your gut less often. What DaftMedic was trying to say was this, I suspect:

a) you need to get fit enough to start on the blind side of any breakdown, yet still arrive with the Jacklers to the next one.
b) if you are that fit, then arrive, locate the ball, then step back on an angle of 45 degrees towards the short side. So equal distance back, and towards the touchline.
c) this opens up your field of view so you see arriving players (check for angle of entry, staying on feet, shoulder charge claiming "clearout Sir!)
d) it also means you can see the defensive backs and their offside line; but:
e) you have to be quick to get to the next breakdown.

Depending on whether you had a break from the game between playing and reffing, this positioning may be a big ask until you develop better fitness. Rule 1 - get fit to ref, don't ref to get fit. But until you achieve better fitness and speed, you may need to cheat a bit by positioning yourself infield of the ruck. If so: Rule 2 - Stay out of the #9/#10 channel! You need to know whether the 10 is flat (stay deep) or deep (stay flat). Either way, you still get in close to locate the ball, then step back into the infield. Face the posts not the ruck, and turn your head to see what you need rather than your body. Make a show of pointing to the offside line even if monitoring something else - keep them guessing. And when the ball is at the base - then you quickly check the offside line.

It's good that you have self-identified the solution (positioning). There's no one answer, but many assessors have a clear view of optimum that won't differ too much from mine. But you know yourself whether "optimum" will leave you exposed - and you will develop strategies to adjust. Don't let those adjustments become your default norm, however. Always view them as temporary solutions until you fix the fitness/speed problem.

Good luck - keep 'em coming.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Expert
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
I get you both.
So ... in scenario in post #3, what the ref should do is ...... ?

Play on. Clarify, at the next stoppage, that you did not see it. Apologise for being "unsighted" if you want.

On the other hand:

Player on floor with blood coming from a bloodied mouth. Oppo player stood next to him with fist covered in blood. Ping him. That is clear and obvious for me.

You should have been in position to see the KO and the punch. You should not have got your positioning wrong ( but it happens). The first may or may not have happened. The second clearly did.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
I don't see either extreme as being a good rule of thumb. I expect a referee to use sensible judgement when assessing a tricky situation.

When a pile of bodies in a maul crashes over the try line, you probably cannot actually see the ball being grounded, and it is indeed possible the ball carrier lost it forward before triumphantly landing on it again. Do you give the try?
 

Shelflife


Referees in Ireland
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
643
Post Likes
176
Or

you hear a "thwack" & a "oi you dirty *******" ..... You immediatedly spin round and see a player fall to the floor with his nose spewing blood while his opponent is over the top of him with fist still cocked ...... I didn't see what started it, or the thwack being delivered...... But Mr Fist Cocked is gonna walk ...surely?

You should have fun in a disciplinary meeting ! it would be thrown out straight away, could you describe what you saw please? aaahhh I didnt see anything but I decided to send him off anyway. shortest hearing ever !

- - - Updated - - -
 
Top