Flag up, ball not in touch

[Dixie]

For me, once flag is up its a lineout.

You have the advantage of qualified TJ's (who may in fact be AR's). Over here, the guy with the flag is a pressed man from one side or the other, who was chatting up a team mate's girlfriend just before the incident with only half an eye on the game. I've had a situation where a spiral kick crossed the line high in the air, while clearly beginning to hook back infield. The TJ put up his flag, and I called Play On! Some players stopped on seeing the flag, others kept going. Unsurprisingly, the ones who kept going were generally from one team, while the ones that stopped were generally from the other. Guess which team was attacking?

I don't see how you can go with the lineout when the ball is caught 3m infield. In the UK where AR's are rare ... overrule TJ's whenever they make an obvious cock-up, support them (and thank them) on the close calls.

 

[Pegleg]

... who now knows that he can get "his side" out of the mire if he so chooses to do so via his flag. At least once anyway before you have him replaced.

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?

didds

IF I felt it was cheating as opposed to an accident I would deal accordingly. We are their to make calls. Sometimes that is to "go with it" but if your plonker is being pulled then deal with it.

 

[didds]

he only has to do it once though...

didds

 

[4eyesbetter]

Re : Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

... who now knows that he can get "his side" out of the mire if he so chooses to do so via his flag. At least once anyway before you have him replaced.

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?

Yes, although as my old Referees' Secretary said, "I will never object to any of my referees who won't use club linesmen, because they're all cheats." I only had to do about half a dozen games (all of them county cup) where I was obliged to use club linesmen and wouldn't you know it, all of them had significant problems in that were created by a club linesman being shite. Coo, slap me vitals, etc. Glad I chucked it in.

In community RL in the south we generally do without team TJs, and everyone just gets on with it.

 

[crossref]

Re: Re : Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

Yes, although as my old Referees' Secretary said, "I will never object to any of my referees who won't use club linesmen, because they're all cheats." I only had to do about half a dozen games (all of them county cup) where I was obliged to use club linesmen and wouldn't you know it, all of them had significant problems in that were created by a club linesman being shite. Coo, slap me vitals, etc. Glad I chucked it in.

In community RL in the south we generally do without team TJs, and everyone just gets on with it.

maybe I am naive, but I don't think the club TJs I use each week are biased.

they may not always be paying attention, and they certainly can't solve all those problems where the ball crosses the plane-of-touch, with players jumping from one side to the other to simultaneously bat it in different directions... but in general terms I think they watch for the ball or player to go into touch and give me an honest opinion. TJs often call touch on their own players in tight calls.

Of course I may be a dupe, but from my perspective I'd always rather have club TJs (often a sub) than no TJ at all.

 

[Paule23]

Re: Re : Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

I agree with Crossref on this, I'd much rather have a club TJ than none at all. There are lots of difficult things to refereeing, but seeing whether the ball is over the touchline or not is nigh on impossible most of the time without a TJ.

I've only got limited experience so far, but I've not come across any particularly biassed clubs TJs. A few not paying attention or not really knowing what they are doing, but no outright bias. Pretty honest bunch so far really.

 

[Taffy]

Bearing in mind this is Devon, last year I had a touch judge on a disability scooter......

Little dog on his platform, one hand waving flag and the other revving the throttle - "I won't do the kicks if you don't mind Sir"...

All match I could not stop laughing when I saw him.....epic, absolutely epic - and he kept up with play .....

Better than the one from South Hams who disappeared mid match and then came back waving the flag "I had to put the tea urn on sir". Honestly sometimes you just could not make it up...

 

[Taff]

Bearing in mind this is Devon, last year I had a touch judge on a disability scooter....

Not doubting his ability as a TJ, but would have safety concerns with a mobility scooter so close to the touch line.

How often to TJs get clattered? About once every 2-3 games I'd guess. Being bundled into a mobility scooter can't be fun.

 

[Pegleg]

he only has to do it once though...

didds

If I felt he was cheating he would not get away with it once.

 

[Ronald]

Glad to hear we here in Johannesburg aren't the only refs with TJ problems. We generally ref high school (u/14 to u/19) games and club games. The only people to have AR's will be the 1st team refs in either school or club games, the rest make do with a TJ from each side. Some schools and clubs will have a person that always takes the flag, and generally they are ok and fairly honest. I did have one incident at a school where a teacher took the flag and started shouting abuse at me. Promptly stopped the match and had him replaced!

 

[Wedgie]

Generally I find club TJs OK, if a little useless at times. I try and remember to say to them (especially if they are the subs in youth games) "Just stick your flag up when and where the ball crosses the line and if you can see if the ball bounces (from kicks) in the field or on or beyond the line, then that would be great." And, to be honest, the latter piece is a bonus that I try not to have to rely upon.

I once watched a ref in a crucial youth game ask the club coaches to "help" spot offences and bring them to his attention - complete disaster that he abandoned in the second half.

 

[TigerCraig]

I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

 

[crossref]

I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

but that's still a club-appointed 'AR' right ? In England that's what we mean by a club TJ.
I don't think there is any issue getting those in club 1st XV games, but at 3rds and 4ths, there can be, especially from the away club who might turn up with 15 players and no coach, let alone a TJ.

In my games it's very rare for me to actually be without TJs -- one way or another I find volunteers (if the away team really don't have anyone, the home club will generally do both touchlines) but the TJs are usually the subs, or the coach, or the player with an injury who has turned up to watch. That sort of thing.



When we talk about having ARs, in England we are talking about the Society sending a team of three officials, which is only done for high levels, or for important games, like Cup Finals.

 

[SimonSmith]

I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

You guys do the upward roll, though, don't you? Start matches at 10, and the referees from the earlier matches turn to AR duty.

In the UK, last time I looked, adults all kicked off at the same time on Saturday. Kids and Ladies on a Sunday. The Aus model doesn't work

 

[crossref]

You guys do the upward roll, though, don't you? Start matches at 10, and the referees from the earlier matches turn to AR duty.

In the UK, last time I looked, adults all kicked off at the same time on Saturday. Kids and Ladies on a Sunday. The Aus model doesn't work

yes, plus 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th might all be playing at different locations. Obviously on average half at home, half away, but it's not synced - each team is in a different competition of league, and one week everyone might be at home, the next week only one team, or none

 

[Camquin]

Also I am not sure how Australia mange travel.

In the UK matches were Saturday afternoons, because people worked Saturday morning - though that has not been universal for a generation at least.

Without lights it is hard to kick off much after 2pm in December or January. You might fit games in at 10 and 12 but the last one risks getting a pitch so cut up as to be unplayable.

So everyone traditionally plays on separate pitches and finishes at the same time so they can meet up in the bar.

But as crossref says we do not have coordinated fixtures for the different sides in a club so they can be heading to the four winds.

Where two teams happen to go to the same club, they may want to share a coach (bus not trainer) and that means they do not want to hang around for hours before or after their games - so prefer the kick off at roughly the same time, perhaps with a small stagger to reduce pressure on the showers.

 

[Phil E]

so prefer the kick off at roughly the same time, perhaps with a small stagger to reduce pressure on the showers.

Surely staggering would increase the shower pressure :biggrin:

 

[Rushforth]

Interesting debate

Dutch clubs only rarely have two full pitches available to them; those that do tend to have 1st XVs in the premier division, and even then struggle for capacity. Similarly, trained 'ARs' are only enforced at premier division level (100 euro fine for not providing, mind!) although I've done the course myself without being from such a club.

Sunday (senior) KO's are almost always 14:30 for team with highest priority, preceded by 13:00 for 2nd XV if both at home. All clubs have decent floodlights for training purposes which can be used for 16:00 KO, but 11:30 tends to be preferred for 3rd XV unless it would be uncomfortable for opponents.

The worst AR I had began with "I'm a referee myself" before the match, so I gave him a nice leading/trailing/triangulation briefing, but he only complained about home 6, 8, whatever whilst the side he was with weren't wearing numbers.

Far more often do I brief a TJ to stand "behind his post" for conversions beforehand and have to tell them "in line with the ball" (as opposed to parallel to touch, on the DBL). At least it separates chaff....

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I once had an idiot TJ who put his flag up to signal a try (in the corner).

Obviously I awarded a line out.
TJ said 'No, he wasn't in touch! it was a try!'
'but you put your flag up?'
'sorry'

I gave the try.

I've had that. He used to lurk on here but doesn't now.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?



didds

My mate referees football. They gave up having "team reps" running the line years ago as they couldn't rely on them not cheating. They run the line at the left back and just flagged their opponents offside at every through ball.

He even had one try flagging for offside from a corner!!

All that leaves is fair but sometimes piss poor decisions but hey they get the officiating they deserve.