Forward pass and offside

[Rawling]

Just finished watching a Youtube video that uses vectors to explain why momentum "forward" passes are not actually given as forward - nice video, except it starts of by saying that such passes are technically against the Law, and ends by saying they are in fact technically not against the Law.

This got me thinking... if we want momentum passes to be legal, we could almost get rid of the forward pass law altogether. Someone catching a pass that is forwards in momentum terms is offside. The only remaining issue I can see is, as seen in the video, if the passer is tackled before passing the point the ball is eventually caught. (In this case, even with a backwards pass, the receiver is technically offside as the Laws stand.)

Thoughts?

 

[Simon Thomas]

There are numerous past threads for last two / three years on this topic - this old ARU video and its interpretation, Elite v Community interpretations, RL v RU forward pass definitions, advanced momentum physics, etc.

Use site search and no doubt you will find them. Lots of relaly good input from the guys on here.

As for the catcher of a 'momentum pass' being offside, he is behind the ball at moment of release so is clearly onside.

 

[Rawling]

As for the catcher of a 'momentum pass' being offside, he is behind the ball at moment of release so is clearly onside.

The Law says a player is offside if he is in from of a team mate who last played the ball - nothing about where he was when the ball was played.

(edit: also thanks, I'll have a look for some more threads on this)

 

[Simon Thomas]

There are three sorts of offside - from set pieces (scrum, line out, kick off), back foot of ruck / maul, and offside in general open play (Law 11).

Yes for Law 11, the general description is not in front of player who is carrying or last played the ball - and in video the pass receiver is behind the player who passes it at monent of release - so the position of being offside, or not, is by definition where is is (in front or not) at the moment of release of pass (the player who last played it).

 

[SimonSmith]

*klaxon sounds*
*tannoy*
This thread will NOT become another debate about forward passes and momentum.

This concludes this public warning.

*end klaxon sounds*

 

[Rawling]

Ok, forget the momentum thing for the moment then. In fact, forget that forward passes aren't allowed.

Player with ball stands still, with a team mate running up behind him.

Before the runner passes him, the ball-carrier throws the ball forwards.

The runner runs in front of the ex-ball-carrier and catches the ball.

The runner is offside, because he is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Never mind the fact he was behind when the play was made - this is apparently irrelevant.

 

[OB..]

Just finished watching a Youtube video that uses vectors to explain why momentum "forward" passes are not actually given as forward - nice video, except it starts of by saying that such passes are technically against the Law, and ends by saying they are in fact technically not against the Law.

Not really. It starts by explaining what most people think constitutes a forward pass, which is not the same as saying that the passes demonstrated are technically against the law.

Player with ball stands still, with a team mate running up behind him.

Before the runner passes him, the ball-carrier throws the ball forwards.

The runner runs in front of the ex-ball-carrier and catches the ball.

The runner is offside, because he is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Never mind the fact he was behind when the play was made - this is apparently irrelevant.

You could avoid the forward pass controversy by postulating that the players kicks the ball.

At what point do you decide if a player is offside or not?

I agree the law is badly phrased, but in practice the decision is taken when the ball is played by the team-mate. If you are behind him at that point, you are onside.

If you decide otherwise, then nobody but the kicker can chase a kick, and we all know that is not the case.

Note Law 11.2 (c):

When the kicker, or team mate who was level with or behind the kicker when (or after) the ball was kicked, runs in front of the offside player, the player is put onside.​

If the other team-mate runs past the kicker and is then offside, the law would be saying that one offside player can put another offside player onside.​

Referees (and players) have to make sense of the law.​

 

[Simon Thomas]

Ok, forget the momentum thing for the moment then. In fact, forget that forward passes aren't allowed. you cannot just ignore that - the laws are an integrated framework within which the referee applies them as and when they have a material impact on the match, deprive the players of an equitable contest, or no advantage is forthcoming to the non-offending team.
Player with ball stands still, with a team mate running up behind him.

Before the runner passes him, the ball-carrier throws the ball forwards. Ball thrown forward, advantage oppo, if advantage not taken, scrum down oppo ball.

The runner runs in front of the ex-ball-carrier and catches the ball. He caught a forward pass / ball thrown forward so scrum oppo

The runner is offside, no he isn't, he came from an onside position behind the ball carrier, last man to play the ball because he is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Never mind the fact he was behind when the play was made - this is apparently irrelevant it is totally relevant, as it his position when ball was last played that matters, not where he ends up

 

[Rawling]

You could avoid the forward pass controversy by postulating that the players kicks the ball.
...
Note Law 11.2 (c):

When the kicker, or team mate who was level with or behind the kicker when (or after) the ball was kicked, runs in front of the offside player, the player is put onside.​

This is the reason I don't use a kick - because a kick is addressed in Law.

At what point do you decide if a player is offside or not?

I agree the law is badly phrased, but in practice the decision is taken when the ball is played by the team-mate. If you are behind him at that point, you are onside.

If you decide otherwise, then nobody but the kicker can chase a kick, and we all know that is not the case.

If the other team-mate runs past the kicker and is then offside, the law would be saying that one offside player can put another offside player onside.​

This is partly the point I'm raising - the Law as written does not say this, but this is what is refereed.

Referees (and players) have to make sense of the law.​

I know, I just wish they were written down sensibly too

Ok, forget the momentum thing for the moment then. In fact, forget that forward passes aren't allowed. you cannot just ignore that - the laws are an integrated framework within which the referee applies them as and when they have a material impact on the match, deprive the players of an equitable contest, or no advantage is forthcoming to the non-offending team.
Player with ball stands still, with a team mate running up behind him.

Before the runner passes him, the ball-carrier throws the ball forwards. Ball thrown forward, advantage oppo, if advantage not taken, scrum down oppo ball.

The runner runs in front of the ex-ball-carrier and catches the ball. He caught a forward pass / ball thrown forward so scrum oppo

In saying "ignore forward passes" what I was attempting to do was draw attention away from the (apparently contentious) "momentum" argument, and also show that I believe a forward pass is covered by the offside Law. I could equally have said later "ignore this is a forward pass, note that the player is also offside", but you probably would have made the same issue out of it.

It's also pointless to then go through my text writing out the referee's response under Law that I am trying to discuss the absence of. I know the Law as written. I am aware of what would happen. I am trying to make a point.

The runner is offside,no he isn't, he came from an onside position behind the ball carrier, last man to play the ball because he is in front of the team mate who last played the ball. Never mind the fact he was behind when the play was made - this is apparently irrelevant it is totally relevant, as it his position when ball was last played that matters, not where he ends up

This is the point I'm making, and one that OB has responded to in a much more constructive fashion above - the Law as worded makes no mention of "when the ball was last played". I know this is what is refereed, I am merely pointing out it is not what is written.

Thank you, OB, for your constructive response.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Rawling

As an active referee and assessor my concern is for the practical application of LoG, not theoretical anomolies of which there are many, often far more open to debates. I wish the IRB would re-write the LoG but as OB knows better than me it was attempted and shelved some years ago in part due to the massive time costs involved.

At all levels of the Game no-one I know of questions how referees apply and interpret the current LoG in the situation you describe. I have never heard players or coaches calling for offside.

We referees apply the LoG based on what is written in the good Book, apply accepted practice and common interpretation (which can ignore what is actually written down - e.g. recent IRB directives re sealing), emphasis of LoG, and what is relevant to the match in front of us. Consistency is crucial and we work hard on that, as is being equitable to both teams.

As referees move up the levels, management and communication become as important as LoG themselves.

 

[Dixie]

Rawling, have a look at Law 11.6(b) accidental offside:

(b) When a player hands the ball to a team mate in front of the first player, the receiver is offside. Unless the receiver is considered to be intentionally offside (in which case a penalty kick is awarded), the receiver is accidentally offside and a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

In this very specific situation, where the recipient of the forward pass is ahead of the ball carrier at the time the latter releases it, the law provides for accidental offside - scrum. It is inconceivable that any worse scenario could ensue when the recipient is behind the passer at the moment of release. In fact, as others have already mentioned, as even Adrian Mole noes, if the recipient was behind or level with the passer at the moment of release, scrum for the forward pass; if not, accidental offside also leads to the scrum, so go with the first scrum offence, which is the forward pass. Problem solved!:clap:

 

[OB..]

Rawling - the forward pass is indeed addressed in the laws: A player who receives an unintentional forward pass is not offside. (11.1 (a) )

 

[chopper15]

Rawling - the forward pass is indeed addressed in the laws: A player who receives an unintentional forward pass is not offside. (11.1 (a) )

What IS an 'unintentional' forward pass, OB?

Ref, OB; Not really. It starts by explaining what most people think constitutes a forward pass, which is not the same as saying that the passes demonstrated are technically against the law.

And am I right in thinking that in a previous debate it was explained that the pass had to be judged relative to the receiver, as it’s near impossible to judge it relative to the FoP as the law demands ie. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.’

 

[OB..]

And am I right in thinking ....

Yes, you are, but don't tell anybody or we might get another interminable debate.

 

[Deeps]

*klaxon sounds*
*tannoy*
This thread will NOT become another debate about forward passes and momentum.

This concludes this public warning.

*end klaxon sounds*

Simon, What you meant to say was 'Aaghoooogaagh' I think? Clearly some are a little hard of hearing so, just in case, AAGHOOOOGAAGH!!!

 

[tim White]

THIS IS A FOUR MINUTE WARNING! In four minutes this thread will implode, dissappearing up it's own jacksie to be recycled as a previous discussion in a nearly new guise.:wink: