foward pass / TMO

crossref


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Forward passes / knock ons lend themselves to a TMO as the decision is much more factual .. did it go forward or not
Obstruction is much more subjective
 

BikingBud


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Forward passes / knock ons lend themselves to a TMO as the decision is much more factual .. did it go forward or not
Obstruction is much more subjective
Apparently not from the amount of noise you're creating over the decisions in numerous posts.

But again you miss the point, technology doesn't assure the correct decision is made. Which ever point of law is being assessed.
 

crossref


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Apparently not from the amount of noise you're creating over the decisions in numerous posts.

But again you miss the point, technology doesn't assure the correct decision is made. Which ever point of law is being assessed.
Yes, I agree that use of technology is not infallible, but my point here is that for forward passes is that the TMO (with all the technology available to them, and the luxury of time) is a more likely to get to the right decision than the referee who saw it once, real time (hardly controversial) however that's not where RU has ended up

As to the Law, it could be clearer, but in practice most forward pass / knock on decisions obviously dont involve Law questions..
 
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BikingBud


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I suggested on post #70 "we can discuss ad nauseam" And it appears you want to!

I asked in another post:

What do you do in a game?​
  • Do you get berated for the decisions you are making?
  • Do you hold off making decisions because you are unable to decipher what you have seen?
If no and no then I would stop worrying and move on.​

If yes then seek local advice from someone that can observe your interpretation as events unfold and offer advice on how you may be able to adjust your perspective. If you feel the laws are still confusing request advice and clarification before the game and then specific guidance and feedback on this aspect of your performance during the game.

Bear in mind in my comment about a 2v1. You cannot make the decision based upon how the last presentation unfolded, you need to observe and react to the cues, in near real time.
 

crossref


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Bud, this thread, is about TMOs !

I don't have a TMO so it's very different, isn't it?
In my games I make a quick decision and we all happily get on with it.

It's when we have video and TMO that judgements get very fine and protocol is important
 

BikingBud


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We tried that
Bud, this thread, is about TMOs !
We tried that but you are currently cross posting across 3 differing posts and conflating the issues.

You consider that the laws for knock on and thrown forward are confusing - As I see it very few share your level of confusion.

I have responded with illustrations to try and explain why I would make decisions on your scenarios.
  • You didn't want to engage or understand what I was offering but merely wanted a simple yes or no.
  • In your scenarios there was insufficient information to provide a clear decision.
  • Hence I suggested some extra context that I felt would support and clarify.
  • But you didn't want to engage.
  • Yet you continue to claim the laws are confusing.
  • Anyway as you appeared to still be having difficulty I pressed that you seek some local assistance, find somebody who could assist you in addressing your decision making and rationalisation.
  • But again you are obtuse and comment that you don't have a TMO!
  • We have a saying in Yorkshire for people like that.
Watch any of the games on this weekend, premiership or RWC, and you will see clarity of understanding as referees make accurate, speedy decisions for both "KO" and "Thrown Forward". I thought there were some great examples of very effective and accurate decisions in the scenarios you dreamt up that reinforce the simplicity of the law.

There are many fine judgments in every game by the players and the referee, perhaps once the players up their performance and reduce the error count significantly I will start worrying more about games being lost due to fine judgements by the referee.
 

crossref


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I will go back and check your long posts and supply any missing information asked for and see if I can get a yes or no
 

chbg


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Only if the 'smart' element is in the dead centre of the ball.
 

crossref


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Dickie E


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Only if the 'smart' element is in the dead centre of the ball.
why would that be important? Whatever happens to the ball happens to all of the ball
 

chbg


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If the chip starts on the rear of the ball and ends up on the front side, someone is going to say that the ball has gone forward, when the centre of it has not.
 

Stu10

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why would that be important? Whatever happens to the ball happens to all of the ball
What is the ball is spinning, which is very common for a rugby ball... having the chip in the middle results in a spin having no impact on positioning. Alternatively you could have 2 chips, one at each end or each side... probably easier than trying to suspend one in the middle.
 

Harry

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I don't see what issue this smart ball could solve. I thought we agreed the direction of the ball was not the issue. Just the direction of the player's hands.
 

Volun-selected


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Ideally, it would be useful to visualize if the ball was held up under a dog pile of forwards… but I doubt it :cry:
 

crossref


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I don't see what issue this smart ball could solve. I thought we agreed the direction of the ball was not the issue. Just the direction of the player's hands.
the technology being trialled in Australia (AIUI) uses hawkeye-type cameras and tech, AND a smart ball to work out whether the player increased the forward velocity of the ball

The technology doesn't analyse the movement of the players arms -- (so they are working from a different definition of a throw forward)

And for a knock on the situation is generally agreed to be different : the direction of the ball over the ground is considered to be the thing that matters - so it's an easier problem for the tech to address
 
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chbg


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I don't see what issue this smart ball could solve. I thought we agreed the direction of the ball was not the issue. Just the direction of the player's hands.
But if the direction of the hands is not forwards, then the initial momentum of the ball is not forwards, regardless of the direction shortly thereafter. That's what measuring the ball's path, accurately, would provide.
 

crossref


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But if the direction of the hands is not forwards, then the initial momentum of the ball is not forwards, regardless of the direction shortly thereafter. That's what measuring the ball's path, accurately, would provide.
that's not right - in an ordinary pass when running at speed the movement of the hands is backwards, but the ball continues to travel forward (relative to the ground), albeit more slowly forward than before it was thrown.

the technology will be looking to detect that reduction in forward velocity.
 

crossref


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I think CHOPPER was more rational than we all realised.
Chopper could have been a TMO - TMOs are necessarily somewhat choppereseque, having to make precise positinal/directional judgements , and pay close attention to the exact meaning of the Law.
 
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