Goal kicking

didds

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Not quite sure what you mean by propensity but if players can kick the that is a skill and should get rewards.

I have more issue with the fact that a contentious penalty decision by the same ref 2 weeks in a row that decides the game.
I suspect what Dickie meant was that given the ability to kick PKs from the half way line, an otherwise innocuous 1 foot offside in midfield can mean 3 points
If that's not seen as a ... concern... (and its not a hill i would die on ) what when we start to get kickers that can kick form 60m? 70m?

Paul Thorburn once famously kicked a PK from 62 metres out, on the angle. Call it circa 70m.

That would mean if that kick was straight in front of the posts, he could have potted that form just outside his own 22. Is that what we would expect - 3 points for eg an attacker after multiple phases and line breaks goes off his feet at a ruck almost in the oppo 22m line?
As i say its not a hill i'll die on :)
 

didds

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How about 2 points for a place kick penalty and 3 for a drop kick penalty ? It could speed things up
id suspect it would mean MORE PKs given away esepcially further out - a convferted try now worth more than 3 kicked Pks . thats decent risk and reward I reckon
 

didds

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Would it be an idea to follow Football?

They have Freekicks and if these occur inside the "penalty area" a kick at goal "Penalty" is allowed. Perhaps rugby could do similar? For example only Penalties in the 22 and between the 15 lines see a shot at goal allowed. Otherwise it is a free kick.

Jut a thought. Not really considered all the implications but I agee with the OP something needs to be done.
I thunk that wold just see more PKs given away - espcially by sides with a sytrong defensive lineout/the oppo have a rubbish lineout
 

Marc Wakeham


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id suspect it would mean MORE PKs given away esepcially further out - a convferted try now worth more than 3 kicked Pks . thats decent risk and reward I reckon
Increasing the value of the try has already made conceding 3 a better option. Make the PK 10 points. Who's going to look to concede one then?
Of course the willingness to concede PK could be countered by giving more cards.
 

belladonna

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I suspect what Dickie meant was that given the ability to kick PKs from the half way line, an otherwise innocuous 1 foot offside in midfield can mean 3 points
If that's not seen as a ... concern... (and its not a hill i would die on ) what when we start to get kickers that can kick form 60m? 70m?

Paul Thorburn once famously kicked a PK from 62 metres out, on the angle. Call it circa 70m.

That would mean if that kick was straight in front of the posts, he could have potted that form just outside his own 22. Is that what we would expect - 3 points for eg an attacker after multiple phases and line breaks goes off his feet at a ruck almost in the oppo 22m line?
As i say its not a hill i'll die on :)

Paul Thorburn's record kick was 64.2m, see my earlier post #11.

Also according to Wikipedia, penalties have been worth three points since 1891 (they previously had been worth two points).
 

BikingBud


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I suspect what Dickie meant was that given the ability to kick PKs from the half way line, an otherwise innocuous 1 foot offside in midfield can mean 3 points
If that's not seen as a ... concern... (and its not a hill i would die on ) what when we start to get kickers that can kick form 60m? 70m?

Paul Thorburn once famously kicked a PK from 62 metres out, on the angle. Call it circa 70m.

That would mean if that kick was straight in front of the posts, he could have potted that form just outside his own 22. Is that what we would expect - 3 points for eg an attacker after multiple phases and line breaks goes off his feet at a ruck almost in the oppo 22m line?
As i say its not a hill i'll die on :)
Just that "propensity imbalance" does not make sense.

Thanks for reminding us @didds

What a flash back, awesome kick. Great and knowledgable commentator who knew instinctively what to say and when rather than just spouting noise and drivel.

If you have to adapt your game because the opposition can kick from that range than that is part of understanding and countering your foe, the same as combatting driving mauls, centres punching through the middle or the off-loading game. England have not always been good at that, Italy's no contest "ruck"!

Were TV pictures really that bad?
 

Volun-selected


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I’m not fussed.

If the oppo has a siege gun of a kicker, don’t commit soft penalties in front of the posts - which is a pretty good rule of thumb in general.

If we do feel a need to rebalance then maybe reduce the time they have to take the shot since longer shots normally need a longer setup.
 

didds

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Increasing the value of the try has already made conceding 3 a better option. Make the PK 10 points. Who's going to look to concede one then?
and then the attacking strategy is to play grinding rugby up the middle playing for a penalty rather than scoring tries...
Its a very difficult balance.
 

Rich_NL

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Brilliant let's see if we can get it added to the laws as a method of scoring:rolleyes:
I'm not sure why I'm treated to an eye roll for a suggestion, when there's a discussion going on about how to make PKs more challenging/encourage tries.
 

Stu10


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and then the attacking strategy is to play grinding rugby up the middle playing for a penalty rather than scoring tries...
Its a very difficult balance.
Isn't that the current status quo?

Personally, I think scrums need sorting out at elite level... a penalty on the half-way for an offside or hands in the ruck is fine with me, but a penalty from a scrum in which it's unclear who did what, that then results in points, feels like too much of a lottery for me.
 

didds

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Personally, I think scrums need sorting out at elite level... a penalty on the half-way for an offside or hands in the ruck is fine with me, but a penalty from a scrum in which it's unclear who did what, that then results in points, feels like too much of a lottery for me.
yup.


so starting with what is writ large in the alw book would be a good start at these leevated levels.
but its seems nobody - including the referees and the PTB,. want to do that. So eff em
 

didds

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v Arg - 0v
v japan - 4
v Chile - 11
v Samoa - 2
v Fiji - 2
v SA - 0

SA ranked above England, England above all the other sides, Arg the closest in rankings to England.

hardly a try scoring machine but that doesnt smack of a side whose sole game plan is based on not scorting tries.

whatever
 

Volun-selected


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The issue may be that some teams are stuck in a Faustian bargain - do you want to play an entertaining game or win.

And if England had ground out a win against SA, and then bored the ABs to sleep to snatch a win then it would be “the birth of a new era in rugby”, “OF steers England to epic win”, and “all hail the Borthball”. But they didn’t so it’s “English rugby stuck in the past”, “Marcus Smith will fix everything “, and “end the bore-ball”.

Still, at least you made it to the damn competition.
 

Stu10


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v Arg - 0v
v japan - 4
v Chile - 11
v Samoa - 2
v Fiji - 2
v SA - 0

SA ranked above England, England above all the other sides, Arg the closest in rankings to England.

hardly a try scoring machine but that doesnt smack of a side whose sole game plan is based on not scorting tries.

whatever
I think the telling figures are tries vs "1st tier" countries, Arg and SA... no tries. Honestly, while I would like to see tries, I don't have an issue with winning a test match entirely from kicks.

My issue is that the scrum has become a means to get a penalty rather than a means to restart the game... SA electing to scrum after calling a mark (vs France) is the most clear example of this.
 

BikingBud


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Given the apparent weak opposition I find it quite disturbing, of the 19 tries 5 were scored by one person in one match and so few by the "preferred" players, yet that player then gets no other opportunity to play in a match and affect a meaningful outcome.

I mean even front row players have scored but wingers selected for the key games????????

Now there may be an issue here with cause and effect but if you don't play players that have a nose for the try line and allow them to play in critical games with freedom to sniff it out, then you will generally find it very difficult to get any tries or really understand where the strength lies within your team.

ETA: Will Jordan has scored as many tries as Portugal and could given his prodigious ability and prowess to pop up anywhere match Australia in the table. Now that would be a bragging right.
Screenshot 2023-10-27 at 15.16.58.pngScreenshot 2023-10-27 at 15.21.22.pngScreenshot 2023-10-27 at 15.16.58.png
 

crossref


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One way in which grass roots rugby is more fun than international rugby is that they don't take so many PK at goal (because they are much worse at it)

My game last week featured 8 tries and 7 conversion and not a single attempt at a PK .. not untypical
 

BikingBud


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One way in which grass roots rugby is more fun than international rugby is that they don't take so many PK at goal (because they are much worse at it)

My game last week featured 8 tries and 7 conversion and not a single attempt at a PK .. not untypical
Queue discussion about importance of allowing advantage to develop;)
 

smeagol


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One way in which grass roots rugby is more fun than international rugby is that they don't take so many PK at goal (because they are much worse at it)

My game last week featured 8 tries and 7 conversion and not a single attempt at a PK .. not untypical
Within the US, kicking for points has definitely seen a tick up over the past couple years - for most of my early years as a referee, I could go an entire calendar year without seeing a shot at goal.

Within the past 3-4 years, I have noticed a significant uptick in shots at goal.
 
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