Greatest RWC Finalist of all time?

Adam


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Just found this on iRB.com. They've ranked all 14 finalist teams.

I'm slightly surprised by the result.
 

dave_clark


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i'm not sure if that's unfair - that was a pretty special team from 1 to 15.
 

Simon Thomas


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Not suprised at all - the 1995 All Blacks were the best national XV I have ever seen in a World Cup without a doubt, closely followed by England 2003 and All Blacks of 1987 - all perhaps even better than the Welsh sides of the 70s (don't tell Ian I said that !).

On the day the 95 Blacks lost the final to the Boks (who were a good side too) for many reasons which have been aired in the past.
 

DrSTU


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...

On the day the 95 Blacks lost the final to the Boks (who were a good side too) for many reasons which have been aired in the past.

Yes, De Bokke scored more points than them.
 

Ian_Cook


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One to fifteen, it would be hard to argue that any player in the world would have been good enough to supplant any of these players. This team pretty much trounced every team they played up to the final, while South Africa struggled. They should not have even been there, and would not have been without Derek Bevan's "Gold Watch" moment in the last seconds of the semi-final against France.

NZHerald Rugby writer, Gregor Paul has put together a list of his "Top 10 injustices in World Cup history". It makes interesting reading, and Bevan's failure to award the winning try to Abdel Benazzi in the dying seconds of that match lead Paul to rank it as the worst injustice.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10759439

NOTE: The "Suzie" incident is mentioned, but he only ranks it eighth; behind ENGLAND v ANDRE WATSON 2003.
 
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Robert Burns

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Another piece of poetic journalism.

The Red card in the RSA v SAM game may have been issued by Owens, but it was his AR (Terheege) that recommended it. So there would be no way that Owens could know it was right or wrong.

And a strike to the face, is always a red card, it may have been helped by the theatrics, but the player still chose to strike to the face, and as such cannot be surprised at getting a red card.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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I have recorded the highlights of all the RWC Finals shown recently on ESPN Classic.

I am watching in chronological order. So I've only seen the '87 final which is the first time since I watched it for real. I've seen the Fra vs Aus semi a few times. I know it's highlights but it wasn't a great spectacle. NZ first points from a DG straight from a FK (rememebr those grandad?) and a try from M Jones after a woeful bit of "picking the ball up" by Lagisquet.

Pascal Ondarts knees Whetton in the head and gets a ticking off by KF - excellent :biggrin:.

After that the game gets better but the French are always trying to play catch up.

Gallagher, Kirwan, Jones and Shelford were good as was Sella. The NZ pack as a unit was tremendous without being overly flashy. The scummaging was great by both sides.

The venue, the low sun, the rain all make it a bit surreal compared to the showpiece it is today - it seems like only yesterday and yet it looks like it's from the fifties (I suppose NZ was then). Sella, Lagisquet, Charvet, Fitzpatrick, Fox are all about my age. Jones and Kirwan are younger!!! I feel very very old today.:sad:
 

Dickie E


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Another piece of poetic journalism.

The Red card in the RSA v SAM game may have been issued by Owens, but it was his AR (Terheege) that recommended it. So there would be no way that Owens could know it was right or wrong.

And a strike to the face, is always a red card, it may have been helped by the theatrics, but the player still chose to strike to the face, and as such cannot be surprised at getting a red card.

That'd be this one:

A Rugby World Cup statement read: "The judicial officer found that there were compelling on-field and/or off-field mitigating features and a complete absence of on-field and/or off-field aggravating features.

"In particular he determined that the strike was an open-handed push, the contact was not heavy and there was no adverse effect on the victim player or the match.

"Therefore, in accordance with disciplinary clause 12.5 the judicial officer determined that no further sanction was necessary.
 

Robert Burns

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Red Card sufficient. We all agree with that I believe.
 

Cave Dweller

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One to fifteen, it would be hard to argue that any player in the world would have been good enough to supplant any of these players. This team pretty much trounced every team they played up to the final, while South Africa struggled. They should not have even been there, and would not have been without Derek Bevan's "Gold Watch" moment in the last seconds of the semi-final against France.

NZHerald Rugby writer, Gregor Paul has put together a list of his "Top 10 injustices in World Cup history". It makes interesting reading, and Bevan's failure to award the winning try to Abdel Benazzi in the dying seconds of that match lead Paul to rank it as the worst injustice.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10759439

NOTE: The "Suzie" incident is mentioned, but he only ranks it eighth; behind ENGLAND v ANDRE WATSON 2003.
It is called sour grapes. The late Ruben Kruger made that last ditch try saving tackle on Benazzi. Coming from a NZ source who would expect where else would it come from. And for Suzie it ranks up there with Santa Clause and the Tooth fairy. Strangely the country with the highest food poisoning stats are ugm NZ. 20 players telling different story and a nobody security guard looking to make a quick buck by releasing a biography. After all who would read it unless there is something in it that would make the headlines. He is a nobody who nobody cares about so he made up a little story to make it sell. I bet he made some dough of numbnuts in NZ and he is laughing all the way to the bank how he probably conned them.

For the final NZ attack weapon was Jonah Lomu. He scored and made over three quarters of NZ tries. Even later in the tournament he was used as a decoy creating space somewhere else which NZ exploited. In the semi final he was given huge amount of space and they paid for it.

What did SA do? Did we need to poison NZ? No we don't. We believe in winning but we do it fairly. We do not do some CIA Jack Bauer nonsense that was reported in the media. Probably a old concept of apartheid government and its special units which was disbanded in the eighties already.

No firstly we used something know as the rush defense. Bob Dwyer brought in into union and used it successfully and we used. Do not give the NZ backs space for 80 minutes and we did it with discipline. Lomu was used as a decoy and they used it with success at times. Small was caught out one or two occasions but we scrambled quickly enough and Japie Mulder showed how to tackle Lomu from the side by tackling him out. Then when they used him through the midfield he was in space cutting through the middle and Joost van der Westhuizen single handedly brought him down. Pienaar and Strydom made tackles later on him when he was used in the midfield. NZ did not know what to do because their attack weapon who bulldozed everyone is being tackled by 15 psyched up Saffers who would throw their grandmothers on defense as Mehrtens stated it. So stop making up stories because Lomu was tackled. If you watched the first game of the tournament for NZ you would have noticed it the guy who brought down Lomu alone was the smallest guy on the field and it was the Irish no 9 and that is when Kronfield score from the offload. But he showed how to tackle him and in SA we are tackling and crashing of big guys into big guys long before Lomu came. Japie Mulder, van der Westhuizen, Pienaar, Andrews, Du Randt, Kruger, Le Roux would tackle anything that moves no matter the size. And they did.

It is a shame not many people realise the SA/NZ rivalry and everything that goes with it. The complete history. It was the biggest in rugby and 100 times bigger than a NZ vs Aus Bledisloe game. People seem to forget that these 2 countries were greatest friends who enjoyed playing one another. In fact when SA visited NZ record breaking crowds attended the games and nothing in world rugby compared to it. If you want to have a unbiased very well documented look in the NZ/ SA rivalry from past to present with videos and photo's go have a look here http://springbokrugby.webs.com/

Funny enough we were banned in the late 80's for Apartheid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cPW-W5Mmpx0

Yet players of color were coming through at national level playing for SA. Off course Tobias Impressed for a SA Protea's team which was SA version of the NZ Moari teams against the British Lions. Unlike NZ we had over 122 tribes which the natives belong to and we in fact had 3 teams. The Kwagga's were the South African African players.
 

Cave Dweller

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Funny. Yes. I bet that's the word the Black and Colored population in RSA were saying.

First of all I am classed colored as well. My dad is white and my mother is colored and I do live in the Cape Flats in a place called Valhalla Park. 2nd of all it is easy to judge a thing from the outside. But people forget is that Africa have 100's of tribes and a lot of them do not share common values and grounds with each other.

Most foreigners believe that South Africa has one group of Blacks that speak one language and have one culture. Nothing could be further from the truth. South Africa‟s Black population is not homogenous.

There are several different tribes who all speak different languages and who have distinct and hugely different cultures. There are main tribes such as the Zulu, Xhosa, Tswana, Venda, Ndebele, Sotho, Swazi and the Shangaan/Tsonga people. But it does not stop there, because these main tribes consist of smaller tribes. For instance the Xhosas are made up of Mpondo, Fingo, Thembu, Bhaca, Nhlangwini and Xesibe tribes. The Sothos are made up of North Sotho (Bapedi) and South Sotho (Basotho) tribes. The Tswanas are only a part of the main tribe known as the West Sotho. Other tribes that make up the West Sotho are the Kwena, Kgatla, Tlhaping, Tlharo, Rolong and Ngwato. The Venda tribe is made up of mainly the Mphephu and the Lemba, but in total the Vavenda can be bordered off into 27 clearly distinguishable tribes. The Zulus are made up of about 200 smaller tribes The Swazis are made up from the Nkosi, Shongwe, Khumalo and Hhlatyawako tribes. The Northern Sothos are made up from the Pedi, Koni, Phalaborwa, Lobedu and Kutswe tribes.... And so I can go on...All in all South Africa has nine official Black languages, with 23 sub categories and innumerable dialects.

Yes, these different tribes of South Africa all have different languages, cultures and belief systems. The Vendas for instance have a special affinity to crocodiles. The Zulus consider themselves as a warrior tribe and they do not circumcise their boys when they are initiated into manhood, they have to kill a bull with their bare hands. The Xhosas on the other hand do circumcise their boys and therefore Xhosas consider Zulus as mere boys regardless of their age.

Also if you use google and search killings in Kwa Zulu Natal espicially voilence between ANC and IFP you will find hundreds of reports. That is basically the Xhosa and Zulu. Is is not because of their political affiliation but because of the two's believes. Darfur and Rwanda two tribes also who do not get along and what happened? Genocide?

This is a bit out of the findings from the Genocide in Darfur and Rwanda

Both episodes took place in the midst of civil war, in periods of political transition, in countries with histories of ethnic nationalism, and in areas where the conflicting ethnic populations lived in relative proximity

South Africa have Zulu, Xhosa, Tswana, Venda, Ndebele, Sotho, Swazi and the Shangaan/Tsonga. Not 2. Then the tribes especially the Zulu's had internal fighting. That is where Zimbabwe come from because of Mzilikaze fleeing there from Dingaan.

Another remarkable piece of information that very few people know about is that the Lemba people who form part of the Venda tribe are JEWISH. You must remember it was about a 100 years ago where most of these African tribes where uneducated, had no hospitals, schools nor anyone defending them from other tribes. That mean if one tribe conquer another they normally kill of everyone or sell them as slaves to the arabs and other populations. Now how do you instantly stop about 15 million people who belonged to over 100's of tribes fighting with each other from killing each other and stop fighting? If the International community know what is really going on in Africa then Genocide in Rwanda could have been avoided. Just a example of some of the laws still believed to by today.

“The law requires that if a woman gives birth to twins, one must be destroyed by having a round pebble pushed down its throat. But in the case of triplets, one must die and two must live” “My People”, Chapter 10, Pg. 218

You can have a look around twins in the black community is a very rare thing. One day if you have the time try to find a book called “My People-The writings of a Zulu witch-doctor” by Credo Mutwa.

Do you even know the country of Botswana with all its riches IE Gold and diamonds who's economy btw is doing much better than SA and a way lower crime rate was part of SA as well? It was given to the Tswana's along with Bophuthatswana. This was really Apartheid and its intention

The ten homelands were as follows:
Transkei –Xhosa
Ciskei – Xhosa
Venda – Venda
Bophuthatswana – Tswana
Gazankulu – Tsonga/Shangaan
KaNgwane – Swazi
KwaNdebele – Ndebele
KwaZulu – Zulu
Lebowa – Pedi (Northern Sotho)
QwaQwa – Sotho

The only job of any government is to protect our individual rights. The role of any government is to protect our right to life and our pursuit of happiness from those who wants to take it away from us. Each of the tribes where given 1 or two of the homelands to protect one another and from stopping violence between the tribes.

South_Africa_racial_map_1979.gif


The Townships have you ever been in one or saw one? Like any city it has its million dollar homes with BMW's parked infront its middle class area and its slums which is the squatter camps (informal settlements). Yes Seweto is like any city around the world.

At the hight of Apartheid in 1978 Soweto had 115 Football fields, 3 Rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 Cricket fields, 2 Golf courses, 47 Tennis courts, 7 swimming pools built to Olympic standards, 5 Bowling alleys, 81 Netball fields, 39 children play parks, and countless civic halls, movie houses and clubhouses. In addition to this, Soweto had 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 Technical Colleges, 8 clinics, 63 child day care centres, 11 Post Offices, and its own fruit and vegetable market. There were 2300 registered companies that belonged to black businessmen, about 1000 private taxi companies. 3% of the 50,000 vehicle owners in 1978 were Mercedes Benz owners. Soweto alone had more cars, taxis, schools, churches and sport facilities than most independent countries in Africa. The Blacks of South Africa had more private vehicles than the entire white population of the USSR at the time.

The biggest hospital in the world, Baragwanath with 3200 beds and at its peak almost 8000 staff had 23 operation theatres fitted out with the most modern medical equipment that existed in the world. Blacks were treated here, operated on...at full state costs to the taxpayers for unlimited periods. The budget of this hospital was and is higher than the yearly budget of most small member states of the United Nations.

Yes there were foolish laws introduced but that was thanks to De Beers and the British recipients behind it because it all started with a mine strike back in 1929. De Beers was the only company to have profited from Apartheid. Employing millions of black workers as cheap labor and running a diamond cartel making billions. The more stricter the laws got the cheaper the labor. Only white payed taxes. So there were no tax deductions from their salaries.

Where we are living the apartheid government build double story houses with a back yard, 3 bedrooms, a huge front yard and a bathroom all with electricity and sewerage. I can show you pictures how they look as well if you want to. I live in one. Did SA really change or was the roles just reversed? Some aspect things changed and some roles are just reversed. We colored community still are in the middle. Meaning if I a black man or woman, a whiteman or woman apply for a job the blackman or woman would get it due to affirmative action and we are still in the middle just like apartheid. The poor are getting poorer, and the government are enriching themselves and people are getting murder around us at a rate of 3 or four a week. We are not allowed to paint a picture of the president naked and the ruling party's youth league encourage people to kill farmers with hate speech which they claim is a Apartheid song. Kill the xxx Kill the xxx is hate speech yet the international community miss that one.

Also you might want to look up the word "Necklace killings". That was used by the ANC members to kill other black people who did not want to support their cause. The Baragwanath hospital today have unqualified doctors, high infant mortality rate and you will have more chance of surviving at a rubbish dump than there. Just because the state do not fund it like it use to back in the Apartheid years. Suddenly with a extra 10 million people of tax paying money plus all the Homelands casino's and tourists attractions there is not enough funds to support things a older regime could have build. It has been 18 years and all we have seen is job losses, more killings, revenge and the government enriching themselves like you would not believe. Their next agenda I believe is land reform which will be the Zimbabwean style of Land reforms.

Coming back to Rugby the NZ touring side I believe it was in the 60's played against a colored team in a tour match. Not many people know that. Also the (Western province coloured rugby union was founded in 1886 and the South African Coloured Rugby Board (SACRB) was founded in 1896) long before Apartheid.

In 1939 the SACRB chose a team to go on an internal tour. The team played 9 matches and lost just two. This touring team was called the Springboks. Its colours were green and gold and its blazer badge carried a leaping springbok with the words '1st National Team 1939'. The second world war dashed the SACRB's hopes of sending the team abroad.

Schools rugby with annual tournaments was an important feature of the game amongst the black players. The first of the annual inter-schools tournaments was played in 1943 with Healdtown beating the Welsh in the final. The last tournament was won by Langa High school in 1964.

South Africa's rugby hierarchy were beginning to welcome non-white players and coloured teams began to face white sides at the end of the 1970s, with Tobias and Avril Williams progressing through the ranks to become the first non-whites to play for South Africa. Tobias recalls Doctor Danie Craven, the then head of South African rugby, praising the non-white sides, telling them, "you guys are on the right track".

The SARFF also sent a team to tour the UK and Holland in 1971. Then several African clubs, previously affiliated to the SAARB crossed over to the SARU which was the so called white South African rugby union. How many knew that?
 

crossref


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what sort of Gun Control Laws do you have ? :pepper:
 

Davet

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The white population in SA has often been referred to as a "tribe", and there are many tribes in SA.

I can't see that as justification for keeping them separate, and especially not for Laws designed to favour one tribe over the others.

Apartheid was repulsive, and the world judeged it so, and banned SA from international sporting events (which mailnly affected the white tribe, who had the major representation in rugby and cricket).

Yes - after Apartheid fell not everything suddenly became rosy, and there are issues that you must address - not least extensive corruption within the ANC. But at least it isn't on a legal basis anymore.
 

OB..


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I have relatives in South Africa, so I am familiar with the argument about there being many tribes. However the infamous notices simply said "Slegs Blankes". Nothing subtle about that.

But the system is formally dead now, so I see little point in debating it further.
 

Rassie

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One to fifteen, it would be hard to argue that any player in the world would have been good enough to supplant any of these players. This team pretty much trounced every team they played up to the final, while South Africa struggled. They should not have even been there, and would not have been without Derek Bevan's "Gold Watch" moment in the last seconds of the semi-final against France.

NZHerald Rugby writer, Gregor Paul has put together a list of his "Top 10 injustices in World Cup history". It makes interesting reading, and Bevan's failure to award the winning try to Abdel Benazzi in the dying seconds of that match lead Paul to rank it as the worst injustice.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10759439

NOTE: The "Suzie" incident is mentioned, but he only ranks it eighth; behind ENGLAND v ANDRE WATSON 2003.
Remember that rugby is a team game; all 14 of you make sure you pass the ball to Jonah. - Laurie Mains 1995
 
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