High penalty count at the tackle

[JonnoNeath]

dixie:

i am being told i give too many YCs .... the most in the Society by far ... and yet .. watching those refs i should use as an example i would say that they dont ref the breakdowns .. it's nearly always a mess and arbitrary as to what goes on/ is decided.
Then the ref comes off the pitch .... "how about that, eh? 10 pks all game ... wow!"
yes .. but .. if i had have been playing in that match, a flanker may well have had a broken finger or two or nose for cheating.. the ref not having refereed so i would have to take the law into my own hands.... out of frustration..

talk to the coaches ... they want us to referee the breakdowns ... they dont want cheats to prosper ... i would say that a few years ago .. the low penalty count was the objective ..now our objectives should be safety and adherence to the laws to make it a cleaner, clearer game for attacking teams - no matter the pks and ycs.

It seems very much like a no win doesn't it. The players will infringe and there is limited ways that you can deal with it -- PKs, admonishment and cards. One can use more cards to reduce the PK count or one could keep the number of cards low and have a high PK count. The other option is as you described, just leave lots of things go...

It seems as if the modern game is increasingly accepting the use of yellow cards, it will hopefully result in a more 'honest' and flowing game. I always thought to myself before I started refereeing that I wouldn't give out YCs very often and was aiming to go for a season with no more than a handful of YCs awarded. After one game this season I am already at 20% of this.

 

[Agustin]

They may have understood the message, but they successfully avoided having to act on it.

Words are meaningless, I would not be interested in repeated promises and vows to try harder - either they act or they don't. If they don't act then you have to.

I hear what you are saying, and I think I will try the card approach the next time this comes up because it's worth trying.

However, while it is possible that the players were not sufficiently motivated to act (in which case the YC would help), it is also possible that they had the motivation but lacked the awareness or skill (in which case the YC would not help). That's the nature of my dilemma. This past game I went on the non-YC side of the fence; the next time I'll try the other side.

 

[Davet]

ex-lucy

I hear your pain.

I think part of this is down to the assessment process.

Refs are told that there should be no more than say 20 PKs per game, and if there are then they have failed to act to manage the game properly.

It can be an easy option for referees to then simply cut down on the Penalties they award - and the mess at breakdown is a simple option - and far enough away from prying eyes...

An assessor does need to look not simply at the penalties that were awarded, but also those that are not - and witnessing a game with a mess apparent at each breakdown that is not managed or penalised away should result in a slightly different discussion about the number of penalties awarded...:noyc:

The objective is actually to cut the number of material offences down, not just the number of times you blow the whistle.

 

[Dixie]

However, while it is possible that the players were not sufficiently motivated to act (in which case the YC would help), it is also possible that they had the motivation but lacked the awareness or skill (in which case the YC would not help). That's the nature of my dilemma.

Agustin, this is a common dilemma, even in countries with a strong rugby ethos. We feel we should make allowances for youthful inexperience; we also feel we should make allowances for the fat old gits, whose skill level has diminished with the years. The again, we make allowances for the level of rugby we are reffing - international players are better at getting out of the way than the 2nd XV of a large amateur club.

Of course, allowances have to be made. But it's very easy to give too much leeway - in effect, the ref has been conned by savvy players. once you tighten up, it's remarkable how many of the apparently forgotten skills can be pressed back into service.

 

[Simon Thomas]

No one has mentioned being effective in your management techniques and preventative calls.

The YC comes after preventative call, whistle, management (player & skipper) has not worked. As an Assessor I am looking to see a referee use all of his management tools first before he escalates to a YC.

 

[Agustin]

Agustin, this is a common dilemma, even in countries with a strong rugby ethos. We feel we should make allowances for youthful inexperience; we also feel we should make allowances for the fat old gits, whose skill level has diminished with the years. The again, we make allowances for the level of rugby we are reffing - international players are better at getting out of the way than the 2nd XV of a large amateur club.

Of course, allowances have to be made. But it's very easy to give too much leeway - in effect, the ref has been conned by savvy players. once you tighten up, it's remarkable how many of the apparently forgotten skills can be pressed back into service.

A very good point. I know it is in my nature to lean towards trusting that the players are generally trying to do the right thing. I think it's time to apply a bit of tough love.

 

[Agustin]

No one has mentioned being effective in your management techniques and preventative calls.

Not so! A certain Simon Thomas brought it up in post #9. I replied at the bottom of #12.

Basically I'm worried that if I've shouted the preventive "Green 5! Release!" he's already succeeded in slowing down the play.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Not so! A certain Simon Thomas brought it up in post #9. I replied at the bottom of #12.

Basically I'm worried that if I've shouted the preventive "Green 5! Release!" he's already succeeded in slowing down the play.

oops - been a busy few days and short term memory not good these days :wink:

I agree that he has succeeded in slowing down the recycle, but I like to see preventatives made to set out stall early in match. Thereafter escalate and ping without preventatives.

My point is that some referees do not have effective enough management skills and move to YC as a substitute for ineffective management.

Not aimed at yourself of course !

 

[Davet]

Preventive would be, "Tackle, Roll away!" as the requirement materialises
If its "Green 6, roll away!" after he has failed then it may be too late.
Get the preventive calls in early, eg "Red 7, don't put you hands in the ruck" as he appears to be thinking about it, rather than "Red & get your hnds out of there!"

Ideal world, of course.

 

[Agustin]

Good points, Simon Thomas and Davet.

The picture of "preventive" that I had in my mind was not really of preventing the offense, but of preventing the whistle. I need to adjust that frame of thought. (Actually it helps me make more sense of what my coach was saying the other day.)

I am getting better at spotting that look in the flanker's eye as he's about to infringe. Not 100% of the time, of course (nor close to it), but it has helped me clean up the tackle/ruck a bit.