High tackle after half-time whistle

[beckett50]

Just putting this one out there to get some other view points.

Had an incident on Saturday that is still causing me to "hum and hah" and wonder if I did the right thing.

Some background to the match.

10 PK in the 1st half and one YC (issued to Gold 5 for pulling down a maul on the 5m line at 12:17).

White attacking on their left flank and play is between the 15m and touch line, in a broken play scenario.

White #14 is part tackled on half-way by Gold player and puts a foot in touch then passes out of the tackle and the ball is caught by White #15 who is then then tackled by the 6'9" Gold #5 and the tackle is round the neck. All fine and dandy in that on this scenario it is PK and possible YC to the Gold player - and being the 2nd YC makes it into :norc:

However, we were already out of time and when the White player had put his foot into touch I was raising the whistle to my mouth to signal end of half simultaneously to the tackle occurring. :sad:

It made for an interesting post-match conversation with the assessor who understood my thought process and the decision that I reached.

Thoughts from my learned colleagues, before I give my account of my decision.

 

[ChrisR]

If not for time did the action deserve a card? Then there is the answer.

 

[Dickie E]

Are you asking "provided time has expired do players have free rein to commit foul play?"

You probably already know the answer.

However, it is not uncommon for a ref to turn a blind eye if the incident is marginal or advantage is over. I heard Marius on the weekend with "if there had not been a try scored you would have been in the bin".

 

[4eyesbetter]

I think we all know what we should do with what's in our pocketsies, but what about the other half of this? After you deal with the miscreant, do you award a penalty or blow full-time?

(It's now a cup final, White are three points down, and 15m in from touch is a kickable spot. Does that change the answer?)

 

[Dickie E]

I think we all know what we should do with what's in our pocketsies, but what about the other half of this? After you deal with the miscreant, do you award a penalty or blow full-time?

(It's now a cup final, White are three points down, and 15m in from touch is a kickable spot. Does that change the answer?)

If an official with the authority to do so has indicated that the ball is out of play (irrespective of what the clock says) then no penalty kick to be given. That means a flag or whistle.

Conversely, if no flag or whistle (as per OP) then penalty kick awarded.

That is my HO, anyway.

 

[Taff]

Interesting one. I suspect 10.4 must apply.

10.4 Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.

 

[Pinky]

For me, end of half is the foot in touch. But if the tackle warranted, then YC, and RC if second Y. Restart game after HT with a penalty at the centre.

 

[menace]

"However, we were already out of time and when the White player had put his foot into touch I was raising the whistle to my mouth to signal end of half simultaneously to the tackle occurring. "

For me you had not blown full time, even though you might had been intending to do so. Most would assume you were raising the whistle for touch. You are the sole judge of time. The easy sell would be to turn that blow in a PK. Deal with that PK as you see fit (card etc). Restart with the PK and next time dead is FT.

To me that's the easy sell and justified in law as it was simultaneous (IMO). Calling FT on an obvious foul play incident? Not such an easy sell!

Ps. I assumed you meant full time, but I would go with same principle if it was just HT. Shouldn't make any difference.

 

[Dickie E]

For me, end of half is the foot in touch. But if the tackle warranted, then YC, and RC if second Y. Restart game after HT with a penalty at the centre.

Blue player knocks on. As ref is bringing whistle to lips Red player punches Blue player in the face. RC and blow for fulltime???

 

[JSAK]

I was once involved in a similar incident as an AR, but to complicate matters I had an overly excited fan repeatedly and enthusiastically hitting me on the had with her big green umbrella (it wasn't personal, she was just very excited).

So, White #14 in touch, but you've not had the chance to blow the whistle yet, but when you do that's the end of the half. Sounds like Gold #5's high tackle and your whistle occurred simultaneously. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to Gold#5 regarding the tackle as being after the whistle. However, I would give him a YC for the high tackle and a stiff warning that the next call against him could well be a RC.

Gold #5's first infraction was not for foul play, his second would be. Perhaps its a difference in local interpretations, but IMO a RC would only be issued on the second offense if the first had been foul play Yes?

 

[JSAK]

Restart game after HT with a penalty at the centre.

Where in the LOG do you find the authority to do that?

 

[talbazar]

Where in the LOG do you find the authority to do that?

[LAWS]10.4. Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.

If play would restart at a 5-metre scrum, the mark for the penalty kick is at that place of the scrum.

If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.

If a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.

If a penalty kick is awarded to a team but a player of that team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee will caution or send-off the guilty player, declare the kick disallowed, and award a penalty kick to the opposing team.
If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.[/LAWS]

That only applies if you blew half time already though.

As stated before, if you haven't blown yet, just sell the PK for foul play and blow half time at the next suitable stopage.

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[JSAK]

Yes, Pierre, thanks. But I was asking about the authority to restart the game after the HT interval with a PK at the center? Is that somewhere in the LOG? Are you suggesting that 10.4 "The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart" allows or this?

 

[Dickie E]

Are you suggesting that 10.4 "The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart" allows or this?

Yes..

 

[crossref]

this thread is confusing me. at time you blow twice
- first blow is for the stopppage (knock on, touch whatever)
- then you do a second blow for time
the sensible ref does indeed leave a second or so between whistles, just for this reason
also you should be giving a signal after the first whistle, then blow for time.

So in the OP

However, we were already out of time and when the White player had put his foot into touch I was raising the whistle to my mouth to signal end of half simultaneously to the tackle occurring

this is not correct, you were raising your whistle to indicate touch.
(after which you would have blown it again to indicate time)

So PK

 

[didds]

However, it is not uncommon for a ref to turn a blind eye if the incident is marginal or advantage is over. I heard Marius on the weekend with "if there had not been a try scored you would have been in the bin".

which frankly is pants. IMO. YMMV.

A bin is potentially worth more than 1 try to the non transgressors. This suggests a possible tactical advantage of NOT scoring a try to force the YC in order to hope to score two while the player is off (in a parallel universe!)



didds

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

I'd be interested what was your actual decision and what the assessor said about that.
Thinking back to the basics of ELRA 2, player safety is paramount. Given that, and depending upon how blatant and dangerous/reckless the high tackle was, then I would issue a YC. I would feel awful if I hadnt sent a player off who was dangerous and it ended up with another player getting a serious injury.
I think it was Ben Youngs who got penalised for a high tackle on Sunday which was very very harsh.

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Where in the LOG do you find the authority to do that?

1.4 If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

Damn, that's Golf

 

[Taff]

... But I was asking about the authority to restart the game after the HT interval with a PK at the center? Is that somewhere in the LOG? Are you suggesting that 10.4 "The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart" allows or this?

I don't think he meant restart the 1st Half because of the PK. What I think he was suggesting was start the 2nd Half with a PK instead of a normal restart.

 

[JSAK]

What I think he was suggesting was start the 2nd Half with a PK instead of a normal restart.

Thanks Taff, that is my understanding also. With that said, I don’t recall ever seeing this happen…? Prior to Pinky’s posting, and Pierre’s and Dickie’s endorsement, it had not occurred to me that the law [10.4 ] allows for the adjudication of a penalty to span the two halves. Sin bin time and YC counts certainly can, so I suppose there is not reason why a penalty kick could not be taken in the period following that in which the infraction occurred …it just seems odd to me.

So what happens when the team awarded the PK at the beginning of the second period is the team that should have kicked off? What happens to law 13.2 (b)? Does the offending team, due to the penalty against them, forfeit the opportunity to receive the kick off? If so it seems as if they are being doubly penalized. Not trying to be obtuse, I just don’t get this.