Hind most player

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I had an incident in my game on Saturday that I was 100% sure was an offence and I sold it as such however on looking at the LotG I'm less than 100% sure and am seeking to prompt a bit of dicussion in order to convince me I'm totally right or totally wrong.

Anyway. Blue have a scrum (doesn't matter where) and I'm stood on putting in side. Ball goes in. Ball goes to BS Flankers side (my side) scrum doesn't wheel at all and he (BSF) picks ball up with his left hand and is off downfield. I blow for PK and tell him (and skipper) as he's not the hindmost player he can't pick it up out of the scrum. Ball was definately not out prior to pick up.

I thought I sold it ok but LotG do not specify that particular scenario as an offence although I thought it was as I read something about hindmost player of the scrum - here it is:-

[LAWS]20.10 Ending the scrum

(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.[/LAWS]

There is no sanction for not being the hindmost player (which is what I said the PK was for) and unbinding and picking up.

Is the PK correct but the sanction should be covered by:-

[LAWS]20.9 Scrum - general restrictions

(b) All players: Handling in the scrum. Players must not handle the ball in the scrum or pick it up with their legs.


Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

Skipper was not convinced and I persuaded him I was (still) right over a pint. I think if I'd got the book out I would have struggled to be as convincing.

On a slightly different tack given he's not the HMP if he'd unbound and picked it up (with two hands) is that PK under:-

[LAWS]20.3 Binding in the scrum

(f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum, other than front-row players, must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.

Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

 

[The Fat]

20.9 is where I would have gone if flicking through the law book in the bar after the game.
The flanker has handled the ball in the scrum

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

20.9 is where I would have gone if flicking through the law book in the bar after the game.
The flanker has handled the ball in the scrum

Which is ironic because the same player did that earlier/later on. Scooped it back into scrum to prevent it popping out. Again I was on his side and saw it clearly.

 

[didds]

Its also a bit of a daft PK to give away as all he has to do if stick his outside foot inside the ball to now make the ball outside of the scrum and the scrum over, then he can unbind and pick up the ball...


didds

 

[Dave Sherwin]

I agree with The Fat. If the ball was not "out", and the scrum had not ended in one of the legitimate ways (which includes 20.10(c) which allows ONLY the HMP to pick up and terminate the scrum) then 20.9 would apply. Of course, it is possible for the flanker to be HMP in certain circumstances.

 

[The Fat]

Which is ironic because the same player did that earlier/later on. Scooped it back into scrum to prevent it popping out. Again I was on his side and saw it clearly.

20.9 (d)

All players: When the ball comes out, leave it out. When the ball has left the scrum, a player must not bring it back in to the scrum.


Sanction: Free Kick

 

[FlipFlop]

It's an offence. +Flanker could have made the ball leave the scrum first, and risk the oppo getting to it first.

Interesting question:
If the scrum had wheeled (not 90), and the #8 picks it up - do you penalise them for not being the hind most player?
Would you penalise the Flanker in that situation?

I believe this is a bad law - it should restrict the pick up to either the #8 OR the entire back row, not the rearmost player. It would be what most player believe and what most refs allow.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

I know this is illogical, but when the scrum wheels and the flanker becomes the HMP, I tend to allow either the HMP or the 8 pick up. Indefensible, save under the head of "let's all have a game, folks"

 

[Browner]

Its also a bit of a daft PK to give away as all he has to do if stick his outside foot inside the ball to now make the ball outside of the scrum and the scrum over, then he can unbind and pick up the ball...

didds

But the reason he won't have done that, is cos the non-feed 9 will equally have been entitled to pick up (or kick) the ball (or inadvertantly his hands!)

But the same 9 won't have risked venturing into the scrum to do it, the Flanker is in effect seeking to use the "still in the scrum" Law to gain him an advantage, good decision LLP. :clap:

As for wheeling scrum, we'd be crucified if we demanded that the HMF flanker was the Only forward permitted to , although maybe law (as written) expects the # 8 to foot nudge it across to the HMF flanker??!!!??

 

[Phil E]

Peep, "Hands in the scrum, ball not out", PK.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

20.9 (d)

All players: When the ball comes out, leave it out. When the ball has left the scrum, a player must not bring it back in to the scrum.


Sanction: Free Kick

With his hand - sorry forgot to add that.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Peep, "Hands in the scrum, ball not out", PK.

Yes.

I think I got the sanction right but the reason was sort of "incorrect" in so far as the scrum cannot end (let's exclude the other ways for a minute) until the HMP unbinds and picks up.

If flanker doesn't unbind and picks up one handed it's 20.9b and if he unbinds and picks up it's 20.3f -assuming it hasn't left the scrum before he unbinds.

It's perhaps easier to hope it all happens on the blind side and we can play on guilt free with just screams of disgruntled players and watchers ringing in our ears!

 

[Phil E]

Yes.

I think I got the sanction right but the reason was sort of "incorrect" in so far as the scrum cannot end (let's exclude the other ways for a minute) until the HMP unbinds and picks up.

If flanker doesn't unbind and picks up one handed it's 20.9b and if he unbinds and picks up it's 20.3f -assuming it hasn't left the scrum before he unbinds.

It's perhaps easier to hope it all happens on the blind side and we can play on guilt free with just screams of disgruntled players and watchers ringing in our ears!

To Flanker. "look fella, either you handled it before it came out, or you unbound before the scrum was over, take your pick, either way it's a penalty against you; back 10 please".

 

[Browner]

To Flanker. "look fella, either you handled it before it came out, or you unbound before the scrum was over, take your pick, either way it's a penalty against you; back 10 please".

OK Sir, but can you help me understand your interpretation of the demarcation of the scrum perimeter please....

Q? The ball came through/under my LHPs left foot, so where exactly is the line that determines when the ball is still inside or has instead exited the scrum ??? Is it determined by a straight line from my LHP left foot to my left foot ...or.... Does it take into consideration the width of my shoulders , because if the former then surely it was out & I was entitled to pick it up???? , and if the latter? then fair enough good spot. And on all those questions is it the whole ball or merely part touching the line that is critical ?

....... OK, in the bar is fine sir but I would like to know for next time

 

[crossref]

OK Sir, but can you help me understand your interpretation of the demarcation of the scrum perimeter please....

Q? The ball came through/under my LHPs left foot, so where exactly is the line that determines when the ball is still inside or has instead exited the scrum ??? Is it determined by a straight line from my LHP left foot to my left foot ...or.... Does it take into consideration the width of my shoulders , because if the former then surely it was out & I was entitled to pick it up???? , and if the latter? then fair enough good spot. And on all those questions is it the whole ball or merely part touching the line that is critical ?

....... OK, in the bar is fine sir but I would like to know for next time

look over there ...
and ... :chair:

 

[tim White]

And yes, I do like walking backwards 10m, Thank you, thank you, oh blessed one.

 

[didds]

seems a reasonable enough question. why march?

"in the bar afterwards" would be a reasonable enough answer as well.

I'll wager that that flanker had done it at least once before in his life and never got pinged for it then...



didds

 

[Dave Sherwin]

I'll wager that that flanker had done it at least once before in his life and never got pinged for it then...

The most commonly heard justification for clearly intentional offences I hear!

 

[Adam]

Yes.

I think I got the sanction right but the reason was sort of "incorrect" in so far as the scrum cannot end (let's exclude the other ways for a minute) until the HMP unbinds and picks up.

If flanker doesn't unbind and picks up one handed it's 20.9b and if he unbinds and picks up it's 20.3f -assuming it hasn't left the scrum before he unbinds.

It's perhaps easier to hope it all happens on the blind side and we can play on guilt free with just screams of disgruntled players and watchers ringing in our ears!

First time for everything then mate!

 

[ChrisR]

..... and if the flanker binds with the 8 in the back row either will have HMF.