Holding Arm up, or not?

[gillburt]

As a ex-scrum player, I agree wholeheartedly both with Brian's plea for straight feeds and the cause:effect that not refereeing it has. Like many things in modern life, the scrum has become a parody of itself as teams and players learn to work the system, the system adjusts a little bit, and they (players) push the envelope again. Repeat. CTPE has focused our brainsand players bodies on the engagement sequence and I do think that psychologically it has literally shifted our attention away from the put-in. There's so many other things to look at/check/could go wrong before we get to that point, that if we get there many of us are happy to let it slide just to keep the game moving.

However, this reminds me of referees who hold their arm up at a lineout and then bring it down to indicate the lineout is over. Very helpful and probably seen as brilliantly helpful when it started. Now... players expect it and get upset/cross when we don't do it (I refuse to do it, to the extent I get complaints from coaches before games when I tell them). However, one thing is for sure... I don't get many offsides at lineouts as back lines stand miles back. If a player cannot judge distance then why should we be helping them. It's a skill. Same applies to scrums.

So my point.... yes, players and coaches have parodied the put-in - possibly aided and abbetted (sp?) at the elite level by TV money. However, we as referees have not stood up to the problem. Yes, we are mostly volunteers who do this for the love of the game, and yes we don't like to be criticised. Yes, many of us complain about how matches at TV level the commentators and caption chappy get the ref calls wrong.

But let's get some perspective. Law 20.6 already exists... for those refs who have lost touch with it, try standing a few steps further back from the scrum at the time of put-in,maybe even from the non putting in side so you can see past the SH's feet/ass/mouth.
Get over the comfort blanket of "I wasn't a forward" and don't be cowed by the "Front Row Union" winks and nudges and "black magic" that they like to spin. At the end of the day it's six blokes pushing and shoving and using well worn tricks and techniques to gain an advantage - yes it requires skill, technique, practise and application, but it's not four-dimensional mathematics. Let 'em get on with it, they love it. Leave 'em alone and just look a few feet further down at the feed....

Ping a few crooked feeds, look up, notice that the world hasn't ended and then after a few weeks I suspect it will be second nature.

 

[OB..]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

However, this reminds me of referees who hold their arm up at a lineout and then bring it down to indicate the lineout is over. Very helpful and probably seen as brilliantly helpful when it started. Now... players expect it and get upset/cross when we don't do it (I refuse to do it, to the extent I get complaints from coaches before games when I tell them). However, one thing is for sure... I don't get many offsides at lineouts as back lines stand miles back. If a player cannot judge distance then why should we be helping them. It's a skill.

It is not a question of judging distance, but of deciding when the maul that forms has completely moved from the line of touch. Since the fly half is more or less at right angles to this line, he is in the worst possible position to judge this - hence the arm up and down.

You may believe your approach is better, but you are out of step with your fellow referees, which is unhelpful.

 

[Donal1988]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

Gillburt how do your assessors agree with it. I didnt do it as it was least of my worries refereeing with no society in Germnay. But I was told to get back into it by my assessors. Its like not using preventative calls. They are necessary and you make your job more difficult without it (as well as the next referees job more difficult).

 

[Simon Thomas]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

However, this reminds me of referees who hold their arm up at a lineout and then bring it down to indicate the lineout is over. Very helpful and probably seen as brilliantly helpful when it started. Now... players expect it and get upset/cross when we don't do it (I refuse to do it, to the extent I get complaints from coaches before games when I tell them). However, one thing is for sure... I don't get many offsides at lineouts as back lines stand miles back. If a player cannot judge distance then why should we be helping them. It's a skill. Same applies to scrums.

It used to be 'standard' to raise the arm on every throw, but these days most referees (and assessors) are happy to only do it on caught ball. There are a few dinosaurs about who like to see the arm up every time, but I tend to run around in a circle if I do that !

This line-out signal is stated in the National Panel / Level 5 Match Management Protocol.

If you refuse to do that line out ou are being inconsistent to what every referee at Panel & Group level, those in our Society (and many others too) and ELRA attendees are asked to do.

It is a management tool, why antagonise players and coaches. You are to facilitate, not cause hassle.

 

[gillburt]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

Gillburt how do your assessors agree with it. I didnt do it as it was least of my worries refereeing with no society in Germnay. But I was told to get back into it by my assessors. Its like not using preventative calls. They are necessary and you make your job more difficult without it (as well as the next referees job more difficult).

At our society the wise heads at the front clearly and repeatedly state month after month that it is NOT a requirement of the LoTG and the choice is yours as a referee, with advantages and disadvantages to both approaches.

I accept that other referees may choose to do it and I have no problem with that being their choice. I do NOT believe I am out of step with them though. I am there primarily to referee, not coach. (OK, at youth rugby, I have more of a coaching hat on). I use preventative refereeing, but I refuse to spoon feed. It's a game of skill - and judgin distance, whatever impediment there is based upon your field position, is part of that skill.

Other have different views and opinions, which I fully respect. However, I take the view that by putting your hand up, you are taking responsibility for the positioning of the back lines - which is not what we are there for. Correctly judging when the lineout is over is a skill and when well executed can give you a big advantage. Just like a flanker judging when the ball is out the scrum and taking a flyer at the number 10. Live on theedge - get it right, you get a big advantage, get it wrong and ping. Do you take the risk? etc. etc. YMMV

 

[Dixie]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

by putting your hand up, you are taking responsibility for the positioning of the back lines - which is not what we are there for. Correctly judging when the lineout is over is a skill and when well executed can give you a big advantage. Just like a flanker judging when the ball is out the scrum and taking a flyer at the number 10. Live on theedge - get it right, you get a big advantage, get it wrong and ping. Do you take the risk? etc. etc. YMMV

My mileage does indeed vary. Unlike when the ball is out of the scrum, there is an element of refereeing subjectivity in determining when the lineout is over. The ref is actually communicating when he feels that has happened - and his view may be totally different to that of the referee the teams faced last week.

Many refs will only hold their hand up if the ball is caught cleanly - i.e. if it bobbles along the top but straight, the hand will not go up - permitting the backs to encroach. Other refs will see the bobble but still put up their hand. Still others will keep the hand up even if the ball is not caught at all, but falls to ground and stays in the ensuing ruck. Whenever a hand goes up, there are clear variances even at TV level with when it goes down again. How does a #10 know when a ball in the middle of a maul crosses the 5m or 15m line? If he gets the word from the #9 who got it from the ball carrier, can he be sure the referee saw or heard the same thing?

Given the opportunity for a ref to play "Gotcha" here, then I think it makes sense for the ref to make clear when, in his view, the lineout has ended.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

Gillburt

I think I will raise this issue at Southern Federation level, for whom I am an Assessor. 'The wise heads at the front' in Bucks (whoever those individuals may be and I am not clear if they hold executive Society positions or not) may be out of step with the rest of the Fed, South West Group and RFU National Panel. If your Bucks Fed Squad members don't use a line out arm, they could compromise any further advancement.

You (and the wise heads) are quite correct that it is NOT a requirement of LoG, but it is an accepted preventative management technique and agreed protocol in England (and elsewhere !) at all levels of the Game.

If a referee chooses not to use that line out signal that is fine by me, but if it results in a high penalty count, yellow cards, or him missing defensive or attacking offsides at line out, the referee in question is going to be struggling at his de-brief especially if using your "I am a referee NOT coach defence" !

Sorry Gillburt and I are a bit off thread - can a Mod move it to new line out thread please ?

 

[ExHookah]

Sorry Gillburt and I are a bit off thread - can a Mod move it to new line out thread please ?

As requested I've picked out Gilburt's discussion and moved it here. I agree that this debate is worthy of a thread all on its own.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Thanks Hookah !

 

[Staybound]

FWIW I do the "arm up" thing pretty religiously. Happy to be pilloried here, but wouldn't it be helpful to have an arm up at rucks, mauls and scrums. I know that's another thing for us refs to worry about but it could avoid all those boring "hands on" incidents that nobody comes away from feeling any happier. I'm all in favour of making players' lives easier by giving them a hint of when they are offending. As for the line out that's the least we can do I think.

 

[OB..]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

A couple of points need clarification.

It's a game of skill - and judgin distance, whatever impediment there is based upon your field position, is part of that skill....
Correctly judging when the lineout is over is a skill and when well executed can give you a big advantage.

It is not about judging the 10 metres, but judging when the lineout is over.

How does a #10 know when a ball in the middle of a maul crosses the 5m or 15m line? If he gets the word from the #9 who got it from the ball carrier, can he be sure the referee saw or heard the same thing?

Given the opportunity for a ref to play "Gotcha" here, then I think it makes sense for the ref to make clear when, in his view, the lineout has ended.

Correct point but slightly off in detail. The maul criterion is

When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.​

 

[Jacko]

FWIW I do the "arm up" thing pretty religiously. Happy to be pilloried here, but wouldn't it be helpful to have an arm up at rucks, mauls and scrums. I know that's another thing for us refs to worry about but it could avoid all those boring "hands on" incidents that nobody comes away from feeling any happier. I'm all in favour of making players' lives easier by giving them a hint of when they are offending. As for the line out that's the least we can do I think.

I think this would be taking it too far - we'd be too busy waving our arms about to referee the primary contest. And we'd look stupid...

That doesn't stop you preventing offenses though - if it's maybe out, but you decide it's not, get some verbals in. "Stay on!", "Back feet!" or if you see someone start to go for it, really bellow a "NO!". Even better, use the next downtime when someone asks "wasn't that out ref?" to say "I didn't think so. You responded well. If you're not sure, ask and I'll tell you".

 

[Robert Burns]

I actually do put my arm up at scrums now.

Just a management tool. I like it, backs seem to appreciate it, and assessors at present aren't too fussed about it.

One thing I just can't get the bloody hang of is saying "Taken Back" and "Inside" for the 22's.

Though I do fully appreciate it's need as we have TJ's for our top games here and a loud shout of taken back helps your mate the TJ lots more than it probably does the players.

 

[gillburt]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

A couple of points need clarification.
It is not about judging the 10 metres, but judging when the lineout is over.

Well, it's both... but if you read my post carefully, I agree with you

 

[gillburt]

Re: BCM's views no crooked feeds

Gillburt
I think I will raise this issue at Southern Federation level, for whom I am an Assessor. 'The wise heads at the front' in Bucks (whoever those individuals may be and I am not clear if they hold executive Society positions or not) may be out of step with the rest of the Fed, South West Group and RFU National Panel. If your Bucks Fed Squad members don't use a line out arm, they could compromise any further advancement.

I never knew about that.....

 

[gillburt]

OK, done my individual responses, so now a general comment to continue the interesting debate.

My initial reference to the linout arm thingy was on the back of Mr.Moore's debate re: crooked feeds, where I said the debate re: feeding reminded me of the arm up at the lineout. Yes, I know that many refs do the arm up, but also many refs turn a blind eye/don't ping crooked feeds enough as we've accepted (to a degree) that there's other things to worry about. Mr. Moore's debate has, I think, resulted in many refs having to reconsider their actions and wonder why they do what they do on the field. And also that scrums today are a far cry from what they used to be. The underlying point I am trying to get at is what other well intentioned actions do we do that have also unintenionally contributed to an change in the game. In my opinion (and I stress that it is that) I think the arm up at the lineout is also one of them.

I don't buy the "trying to catch them out" argument. You could use that for any aspect of the law that you feel is less important. Offside at the lineout is a massive issue. Defence is on top of attack, getting over the gain line is harder than it should be.... so why should we be helping defences? IMHO (and very humble it is) not putting your arm up introduces uncertainty and variation to the game.

I accept that this flies in the face of protocal (I didn't know it was protocol, so I've learnt something new today), but just 'cos it's protocol doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Phil E]

not putting your arm up introduces uncertainty and variation to the game.

Is that the job of the referee? :chin:

 

[Simon Thomas]

I accept that this flies in the face of protocal (I didn't know it was protocol, so I've learnt something new today), but just 'cos it's protocol doesn't mean it's right.

Surely it is right when that protocol has been the result of discussions and agreement between RFU, Referee Dept, Panel Refs, Directors of Rugby, Coaches and Players ?

 

[gillburt]

Is that the job of the referee? :chin:

I'll turn it around.... putting your arm up removes the inherent uncertainly and randomness that requires skill and judgement to overcome....

is that the job of a referee?

 

[gillburt]

Surely it is right when that protocol has been the result of discussions and agreement between RFU, Referee Dept, Panel Refs, Directors of Rugby, Coaches and Players ?

I think you've hit the nail on the head... just because everyone agrees, doesn't mean it was the right decision (with the benefit of hindsight)