How quickly must the ball be grounded to be not held up?

[Guyseep]

Let me preface this by saying I was confident and sure of the call I made in my game today but would like some feedback.

U16 game Blue is leading White 12-7. Blue had just scored and converted and there was 30 seconds left on the clock(enough time for a restart).

White kicks off and gathers their own kick. Several phases later they are pressing the blue line. Blue is penalized for being offside at the ruck, White takes a quick tap and goes. Again several phases and finally the White player crashes over the line.

I was fully aware and appreciated the significance of the White team scoring so I was in good position to see the ball and player as they went over the line and had my whistle ready to make a call - try, held up, knock on etc.

In the act of crashing over the line, the White player landed flat on his back with the ball on his chest/shoulder. several blue players had their hands on the ball as well. It was definitely not on the ground. I immediately whistled and called it held up. In the time it took for me to blow my whistle and signal held up, several players from both team pounce on the ball and the White ball carrier twists his body to ground it.

I call it held up, 5m scrum to White but because time expired it was end of game.

Several things came out of this. White coach was insistent that they had scored and that the ball carrier should be given time to ground the ball, or be given the allowance of one motion.

I argued that a held up ball is whistled immediately by the referee to prevent a prolonged struggle, that in theory can go on forever. I also argued that the allowance to play the ball in goal is not quite the same as in the field of play.

If the white player's momentum had rolled him over to ground it I would have awarded the try, but he definitely fell on his back, the ball was held up, and then he struggled to ground it(after I had whistled it). Furthermore I argued that if he had been tackled short of the line and then reached out and grounded it that would satisfy his prerogative to play the ball in any direction when tackled.

So the question remains - how long do you allow the ball carrier to struggle in order to ground the ball?

 

[OB..]

So the question remains - how long do you allow the ball carrier to struggle in order to ground the ball?

Very little. The "maul in goal" was abolished in the nineteenth century.

For me it is equivalent to being brought down short of the line. If you can touch down based on your momentum, or by reaching out/twisting "immediately", you have scored. If the opponents manage to prevent that, it is held up.

As you say, you do not want prolonged wrestling, so what other criteria would you use to judge?

 

[SimonSmith]

I wouldn't blow it any quicker than I would blow the tackled player in the field of play.

If you were consistent in THAT timing, you're OK. If you're quicker.... mayhap not.

 

[Dixie]

I wouldn't blow it any quicker than I would blow the tackled player in the field of play.

I would take a different view. In the field of play, the tackled player is protected. His opponent has to release him; he is allowed to place the ball away from his body; incoming players have to stay on their feet, and have to arrive from behind the ball.

In this instance, we have no tackle; no ruck or maul can develop. In essence we are close to rugby anarchy. I will not therefore grant the same amount of time, because it would be potentially dangerous to do so. The would-be scorer, facing upwards with a ball on his chest, may find 29 people diving on top of him top prevent or facilitate the try. OP's action sounds pretty near perfect to me: player's body under the ball, two oppo preventing him grounding it without a wrestling match, PEEP - held up to prevent a dangerous pile-up.

Coach is confused in suggesting that time should be allowed to ground the ball. This is the ref's call entirely - if he believes that there is a reasonable prospect of success, he will allow enough time to see how it will play out - subject to the requirements of safety. With a ball on the attacker's chest facing the sky and two defenders ensuring it stays there - I believe the immediate whistle was spot on.

 

[crossref]

In the time it took for me to blow my whistle and signal held up, several players from both team pounce on the ball and the White ball carrier twists his body to ground it.

hmm - reading this carefully - does this mean if he actually grounded it BEFORE you actually blew your whistle -
in which case you should have awarded the try.

 

[Taff]

I was told to give them the same time as it takes me to say the word "immediately".

 

[Simon Thomas]

I was told to give them the same time as it takes me to say the word "immediately".

sound and consistent advice

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I think you nedd to judge each case on its merits. Bodies on the floor, wrestling, diving in is a quicker PEEP held up than say Will Carling held under someone's arm unable to reach the floor and thus ground the ball - PEEP held up after 5-10 seconds of laughing.

 

[Davet]

Take a good look - assess that it's held up, then blow.

That will take you a finite time - which will be as long as you should take.

You got it right.

 

[Phil E]

What I find usually happens is that, the referee decides its held up and blows his whistle.
As soon as the whistle goes, the defenders relax a little, which allows the ball carrier to ground the ball.
This all happens in a split second.

The attackers then all claim they weren't given long enough, when in actual fact if you hadn't blown, they would never have been able ground it at all.

 

[ChrisR]

I consider 'held up' when the defenders prevent the ball from being grounded. That wasn't the case here as it seems that before the peep got out of your whistle the White players twisted and grounded the ball. Award the try.

I understand the concern regards potential flash points in goal and prolonged wrestling but there needs to be some allowance for things to develop when the ball isn't locked up.

- - - Updated - - -

I consider 'held up' when the defenders prevent the ball from being grounded. That wasn't the case here as it seems that before the peep got out of your whistle the White players twisted and grounded the ball. Award the try.

I understand the concern regards potential flash points in goal and prolonged wrestling but there needs to be some allowance for things to develop when the ball isn't locked up.

- - - Updated - - -

Note to RB - I get a lot of these double posts. Why is that?

 

[Guyseep]

In the time it took for me to blow my whistle and signal held up, several players from both team pounce on the ball and the White ball carrier twists his body to ground it.

hmm - reading this carefully - does this mean if he actually grounded it BEFORE you actually blew your whistle -
in which case you should have awarded the try.

Nope I blew the whistle then it was grounded.

 

[crossref]

Fair enough then

 

[dave_clark]

Nope I blew the whistle then it was grounded.

much like Vunipola in the England game on Saturday. unless i'm mistaken, the ref blew the whistle and went to the TMO before the ball was touched down.

(yep, off topic)

 

[Dickie E]

similar issue in recent Brumbies v. Rebels game. Rebels crashed over line in pile of bodies, ref has a good look while everything stationery, Brumbies player comes in from side, digs ball out and goes for a run. WTF? Should have been blown for held up with Rebels scrum.

 

[damo]

The way I have always done it, (and hopefully it is close enough to being correct):

for a tackle before the line I give the ball carrier a chance to place the ball and try to give them exactly the same time as I would if the tackle was made on the halfway line. If they don't manage to get the ball over the line, you have to watch very carefully for indiscretions from both teams - the ball carrier will often then try to wriggle or crawl, or play the ball to get it back to his own side to prevent a turnover, whilst the defenders will often go straight off their feet causing a mess. Sometimes both teams infringe so much at this point that I reckon if you are ever going to blow a ball up for unplayable (which is frowned upon these days) close to the line is the most likely time.

if the ball ends up over the line whether by a tackle or a rolling maul however I want to see the ball grounded essentially immediately. If it is up off the ground when the bodies are on the ground I just blow my whistle and we play a scrum 5. You get the odd whinge where the ball ends up grounded after you blow the whistle, but as said above once the whistle ges everyone relaxes and it is easier.


At the end of the day, and looking at it philosophically, being really cautious about awarding tries is probably the most equitable outcome because most likely the attackers will get the ball back at a 5m scrum if they can't score. I don't have any stats (though someone might), but I suspect getting an attacking 5m scrum for most teams will have an expected value of 2-3 points.

 

[Browner]

consistent time allowance wherever on pitch makes sense to me, and an easier sell.

 

[ChrisR]

Consider this: Ball carrier fights his way into goal and, before he can get to ground, is held and driven into touch-in-goal (a la Will Carling). Let's say 5 seconds elapse from getting into goal to driven into TIG.

Do you peep quick and award the attacking 5m for held up or let play continue and reward the defenders with a 22?

In this instance I'd hope I'd let the play continue as I'd deem the outcome undecided.

And, in the OP, if the BC can wrest the ball away from the defender and ground it I'd give him the try.

There is no law that requires a quick whistle.

 

[OB..]

Consider this: Ball carrier fights his way into goal and, before he can get to ground, is held and driven into touch-in-goal (a la Will Carling). Let's say 5 seconds elapse from getting into goal to driven into TIG.

If players are on their feet, the situation may be a little different, but I still would not recommend letting it go on too long. When players are on the ground, many of the usual subsequent actions make no sense in in-goal - there is no ruck offside line, for example.

And, in the OP, if the BC can wrest the ball away from the defender and ground it I'd give him the try.

But the question is how long you wait to see if he can. Your answer?

 

[Davet]

Players on their feet would be play in-goal similar to a maul, and the laws instruct the ref to blow up.

One could require a team-mate of the ball carrier to get involved, but I think "similar" might not actually require the usual 2+1.