In goal KO ? / DBL?

Not Kurt Weaver


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Red attacking kick the ball in-goal, blue defending standing beyond DBL knocks the ball back into play before the ball crosses the DBL. Red grounds the ball.

What is the call? Law refernces if posssible
 

TNT88


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- The ball has not become dead at any point. We still have open play.

Law19
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not
crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space
rising immediately above the touchline.

- Then we have a knock on advantage to red

- Red grounds the ball.

- Try.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Thanks tnt, but the blue player in my ? is not in touch, he is beyond the DBL
 

Dixie


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Firstly, the player needs to be shot by his coach because it he'd merely caught it it would be a scrum at the halfway line without troubling the ref's finer law knowledge.

Secondly, a lot depends on whether the ball had crossed the plane of the DBL. Let's assume for a moment that it did. It has touched someone standing in-goal, and so at first sight this looks like a 22m drop-out:

[LAWS]22.11 BALL DEAD IN IN-GOAL
(a) When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by the attacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was played into in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking team throws in the ball.[/LAWS]

However, that law is modified in the event of the ball being made dead directly from a restart, drop-out or kick-off:

[LAWS]13.9(b) If the opposing team grounds the ball, or if they make it dead, or if the ball becomes dead by going into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball, or
To have the other team kick off again.[/LAWS]

I'd say that on the assumption that the ball had crossed the plane of the DBL, the correct call is an option of scrum on half-way to thenon-kicking side, or kick again.

Is the answer at all different if the ball had not crossed the plane of the DBL, and so was still in-goal? At first sight, 22.11 applies - particularly as the title is ball dead in in-goal, which clearly implies that its provisions apply when the ball itself is still in-goal. But there is the potential glitch of the definition of law 19:

[LAWS]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.[/LAWS]

Of course, the DBL is not "Touch" - and depending on your absolutism threshold may not even be the same as Touch-in-Goal. But there is a very broad understanding that the rules relating to one line relate to the others; so the rule about catching a ball infield and then landing in touch are applied to the 22n line for the purposes of the Mark etc. IMO, it is reasonable to apply this provision also to the DBL.

If you do so, ir is perfectly reasonable for a player standing in T-I-G or over the DBL to knock a ball to keep it alive, without triggering the automatic application of 22.11. But if he does so, he must avoid knocking on. I supect it will be almost impossible for the player in this situation so to knock the ball as to persuade the referee that it had not gone forward.

So if the ball had not crossed the plane of the DBL, in 99.9% of cases the corect call will be: knock on in-goal by the defence, scrum 5m out to the attacking team.
 

Davet

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Firstly, the player needs to be shot by his coach because it he'd merely caught it it would be a scrum at the halfway line without troubling the ref's finer law knowledge.

Why even try to catch it - just leave the damn thing alone and let it run dead itself. Simplest and easiest thing to do.

So if the ball had not crossed the plane of the DBL, in 99.9% of cases the correct call will be: knock on in-goal by the defence, scrum 5m out to the attacking team.

12.1.d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded

Though in this case the player was not inside the in-goal - he was outside it, stood beyond the DBL...

Is it the position of the ball that is relevant or the position of the player doing the knocking on?

If it is the player's position then we could play advantage and award the try...?

Or can we simply stop the game, allow the coach to come on the field and use the mercy-killer tool, which all good coaches should carry for Darwinian reasons?
 

TNT88


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Thanks tnt, but the blue player in my ? is not in touch, he is beyond the DBL


What changes should I make to my checklist to ensure I make the right call here then?

edit: Does the law book even say we should apply a different set of rules to the dead ball line?
 

Davet

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Does the law book even say we should apply a different set of rules to the dead ball line?

No, hence the discussion.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Heard a political pundent say that last nights presidential debates would not sway already commited voters regardless of fact because these voters are so entrenched in their support.

I now give up on the DBL fight.

I asked this question to get Dixie, Ian and Davet to use 22.11a to solve the question and hearby give me further argument against the GN try.

1. It is clear to me that the picture associated with 22.4g, has a player cleary behind the DBL scoring a try.
2. It is clear to me that the picture of the plan the lawbook, has clearly identified the area beyond the DBL as Touch-in-goal despite despite the use of hypen to make sure it fit oppositethe touch in goal line.
3. for in-goal questions, I have learned to reference law 17 after looking in law 22 and finding an applicable law.
4. It is clear that the definition of OUT of PLAY is archaic and that is defines touch and touch-in-goal as synonomous to the area beynd the DBL.
5. The difference in name of TiG and DBL has to be only to support the thrown forward law.
6. Bloody ell, everyones doing it I must be wrong.

"More of this Kool-Aid Jim", "Lad, around here most people call me Rev. Jones"
 

Dickie E


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After reading all this I'm not so sure.

It is a generally held view that whether a player touches the ball or the ball touches a player doesn't matter. Think ball going into touch, 22 or in-goal.

So if the ball makes contact with a player who is beyond the DBL and that player isn't in a position to ground it for a try or touchdown (let's say he stops the ball from rolling over the DBL with his foot) surely the requirements of 22.11 have been met and the ball is dead?
 

Davet

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The difference in name of TiG and DBL has to be only to support the thrown forward law.

Agreed.

That's why we say in the direcion of the opponents DBL not TiG.

So if the ball makes contact with a player who is beyond the DBL and that player isn't in a position to ground it for a try or touchdown (let's say he stops the ball from rolling over the DBL with his foot) surely the requirements of 22.11 have been met and the ball is dead?

Works for me.

Then all we do is consider who put the ball in in-goal - we don't have to worry about whether it was rolling or not when faced with this situation (either in respect of the DBL or TiG), unlike touch or the 22 - since we don't care who is responsible for the ball going over the DBL or TiG, merely how it got into in-goal.
 

Dickie E


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Works for me.

I don't have access to video of the North try anymore, but did the defender, with feet over the DBL, make contact with the ball prior to North grounding it?
 

Dickie E


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Works for me.

Scenario:

ball is stationery in-goal near to the TiG line. Ball has been put into in-goal by attacking team (Red).

Blue defender and Red attacker are shoulder to shoulder in foot race to the ball.

As the Red attacker is about to dive on the ball to score the try the Blue defender places one foot on TiG line and intentionally, deliberately and with gay abandon swats the ball over the DBL.

What is the call?

Mine is no try; restart with 22 drop out. Defender was out of field of play so first contact made the ball dead.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Agreed.

That's why we say in the direcion of the opponents DBL not TiG.

I was being sarcastic. As writ, and IMO a ball going out of play at the DBL is "dead", not in touch, not in touch in goal. There is no writtten justification otherwise

I don't have access to video of the North try anymore, but did the defender, with feet over the DBL, make contact with the ball prior to North grounding it?

No, I was trying to get Dix,Dave and Ian to commit to the 22.11a law in one situation and not the other. it was a failed ploy
 

ddjamo


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^^^^ wow...if you can sell that one dickie - you're the man. I would be in the "intentionally offending" camp. foul play can still be committed over the DBL.
 

Dickie E


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lets see what the heavy breathers think
 

Dickie E


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I think they'll get ya with 10.2c it includes the DBL. Thanks for keeping the thread alive

Yes 10.2(c) does include DBL but my contention is that as soon as contact is made by the skin of the Red player's hand with the ball then the ball is dead and already "out of play" and over the DBL. So laws such as 10.2(c) can not apply (of course, dangerous play would still be applicable).
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Yes 10.2(c) does include DBL but my contention is that as soon as contact is made by the skin of the Red player's hand with the ball then the ball is dead and already "out of play" and over the DBL. So laws such as 10.2(c) can not apply (of course, dangerous play would still be applicable).

I like it. Now the waiting game.
 

TNT88


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Isn't it easier if we just treat them the same? If there is a grey area, why not go with the simple solution?
 
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