In goal KO ? / DBL?

[Dickie E]

Isn't it easier if we just treat them the same?

Who ... the heavy breathers?

 

[TNT88]

What are people trying to achieve by separating the dead ball line from the touch lines? If you can score a try with your feet over the touch line, why not with your feet over the dead ball line?

 

[Womble]

Me thinks you lot have lost the plot...epper:

 

[Dickie E]

What are people trying to achieve by separating the dead ball line from the touch lines? If you can score a try with your feet over the touch line, why not with your feet over the dead ball line?

TNT, I think we've moved on from that issue with consensus that there is no difference.

 

[Dickie E]

Me thinks you lot have lost the plot...epper:

OK. So you're the TMO reviewing the scenario in post #12. The video is clear and it is as described.

"Womble, Nigel here. Try or no try please?"

 

[Womble]

Nigel , Womble here. No try.

 

[Dickie E]

Thanks Womble. Can you recommend the correct restart please?

 

[Womble]

Jeez mate! Want me to ref the game for you! 22 drop out

 

[Account Deleted]

Scenario:

ball is stationery in-goal near to the TiG line. Ball has been put into in-goal by attacking team (Red).

Blue defender and Red attacker are shoulder to shoulder in foot race to the ball.

As the Red attacker is about to dive on the ball to score the try the Blue defender places one foot on TiG line and intentionally, deliberately and with gay abandon swats the ball over the DBL.

What is the call?

Mine is no try; restart with 22 drop out. Defender was out of field of play so first contact made the ball dead.

Why does the defender not simply touch down or pick it up?

 

[Dixie]

OK. So you're the TMO reviewing the scenario in post #12. The video is clear and it is as described.

"Womble, Nigel here. Try or no try please?"

Wrong question. You know there was no try, because the attacking player never grounded the ball. Should be: but for Foul Play, would a Try have been scored? So given the wrong question, Womble's answer is totally accurate and possibly unsatisfactory, since you don't know whether he's simply telling you that Red did not ground the ball, or whether he's saying that Blue committed no offence, or whether he's saying that Blue did commit an offence, but it did not prevent a try.

And it's a great scenario. I wasn't going to wade in, but since you're really agitating (I've always thought of myself as a heavy breather - it's the asthma), I thought I'd make you happy. There are a number of relevant factors the TMO will want to take into account in answering the question you should have asked:

a) in swatting the ball away, does first contact mean the ball is immediately dead? if not:
b) in swatting the ball away, did Blue impose any downward pressure on the ball, thereby effecting a valid and legal touchdown? If not:
if seems likely that Blue committed an offence in deliberately swatting the ball out of play.
c) was that offence an act of Foul Play under law 10? Answer: Yes, even if committed outside The Ground due to the foot on the DBL
d)Is such an offence outside the ground capable of preventing a try being scored? Yes
e) Did it in fact prevent a probable try being scored? Question of fact. Seems likely from the scenario.

So how to rule in this case? law 22.5 - a player in TIG or by extension beyond the DBL can ground a ball, so touching it cannot make it dead by virtue of it being beyond the DBL. If the first to the ball had been the attacker, and in a desperate effort to get to the ball first he had to swipe at it rather than make obvious downward pressure, would we give him the benefit of the doubt? I suspect we'd be generous in that case, and so consistency requires us to be generous here too. Downward pressure exerted on a stationary ball by a player beyond the DBL: touchdown, 22m restart. The rest is interesting theory, and Womble (with all his experience) accurately encapsulated all that in two words.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Wrong question. You know there was no try, because the attacking player never grounded the ball. Should be: but for Foul Play, would a Try have been scored?

Nope. Its not foul play.

If the "swatter" had been in the playing area, then yes, there is foul play, but scenario in post #12 specifically said "Blue defender places one foot on TiG line and intentionally, deliberately and with gay abandon swats the ball over the DBL."

With that player having one foot on the T-i-G line, there are two possibilities;

1. the moment he touches the ball, the ball becomes dead, so his swatting action is moot.
2. if, in his attempt to swat the ball, he applies any downward pressure, then he has grounded the ball in goal, so again, his swatting action is moot.

In either case, Red played the ball into in-goal, and it was made dead, so drop-out 22m to Blue.

 

[Davet]

Actually I think DickieE has a point.

The ball is in touch / TiG as soon as it touches anyone or anything beyond the line.

The defender has a foot over the line and is in TiG.

a player in TIG or by extension beyond the DBL can ground a ball, so touching it cannot make it dead by virtue of it being beyond the DBL.

Not quite - not a player - only an attacking player

The Law says that were he an attacker, then he would be able to apply downward pressure and score a try - that's specific, and the Law doesn't mention that in relation to a defender. So the conclusion in Dixie's second clause is invalid in relation to a defender.

The assumption must, I believe, be that such an exception is unnecessary in relation to a defender, since by touching the ball in these circumstances the defender has achieved his objective, and the ball is dead TiG.

That being the case the swipe is irrelevant, it occurs after the ball is dead.

 

[Womble]

Due to the laws of physics the only way that there could not have been downward pressure on the ball would be by an upward swipe of the hand. Whilst not impossable with the ball on the ground, may I suggest to you your honor that in all probability there was downward pressure on the ball. So in conclusion, if a ball is on the ground stationary, the fact that the ball has been touched would imply that the player has placed downward pressure on the ball. ( Preparing for incoming)

 

[Dixie]

Nope. Its not foul play.

If the "swatter" had been in the playing area, then yes, there is foul play, but scenario in post #12 specifically said "Blue defender places one foot on TiG line and intentionally, deliberately and with gay abandon swats the ball over the DBL."

With that player having one foot on the T-i-G line, there are two possibilities;

1. the moment he touches the ball, the ball becomes dead, so his swatting action is moot.
2. if, in his attempt to swat the ball, he applies any downward pressure, then he has grounded the ball in goal, so again, his swatting action is moot.

In either case, Red played the ball into in-goal, and it was made dead, so drop-out 22m to Blue.

You have neglected the third possibility: the player with a foot behind the DBL (let's use Beyond DBL or BDBL for short) swatting the ball without exerting downward pressure. 10.2 c provides:

[LAWS](c) Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.[/LAWS]

I think we are broadly agreed that the DBL is to be treated the same as other boundary lines. Thus there is a DBL corollary to the Law 19 definition:

[LAWS]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline.
A player BDBL may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the DBL [/LAWS]

If the player BDBL does so knock it deliberately BDBL, then he has not made the ball dead, and has acted contrary to 10.2c.

 

[Davet]

Although you are twisting law 19 beyond the clearly intended purpose, which is to enable a means of keeping the ball alive.

A Jesuitical approach to debate if ever I saw one.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Not quite - not a player - only an attacking player

The Law says that were he an attacker, then he would be able to apply downward pressure and score a try - that's specific, and the Law doesn't mention that in relation to a defender.

Actually, it does apply to a defender as well

[LAWS]22.5 BALL GROUNDED BY A DEFENDING PLAYER
(b) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If defending players are in touch-in-goal, they can make a touch down by grounding the ball in their in-goal provided they are not carrying the ball. [/LAWS]

 

[Ian_Cook]

You have neglected the third possibility: the player with a foot behind the DBL (let's use Beyond DBL or BDBL for short) swatting the ball without exerting downward pressure. 10.2 c provides:

[LAWS](c) Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.[/LAWS]

I think we are broadly agreed that the DBL is to be treated the same as other boundary lines. Thus there is a DBL corollary to the Law 19 definition:

[LAWS]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline.
A player BDBL may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the DBL [/LAWS]

If the player BDBL does so knock it deliberately BDBL, then he has not made the ball dead, and has acted contrary to 10.2c.

I still disagree.

You acknowledge that the area BDBL is treated at T-i-G, then you deny it in the next sentence.

In the scenario in Post #12, the ball is stationary on the ground, so any player touching it with a foot outside the in-goal area is responsible for putting the ball dead; the subsequent "swat" is moot

 

[Davet]

Ian - thanks - I'd missed that.

But I don't think it changes much.

Either he'd grounded it - or if not then it was TiG.

But whichever it was it happened before he knocked it out of play, so that final action is irrelevant.

 

[TNT88]

This is my understanding, where does it go wrong?

A player who is in touch can hit or kick the ball providing it's still in play.
A player with his foot TiG hits the ball.
The ball becomes dead when it touches something beyond the dead ball line (ie: the ground).
The player has deliberately hit it out, therefore penalty 5m in on the 15.

If he picked the ball up (or even scooped the ball up) instead of hitting it. Then the ball would have been out immediately.

 

[Account Deleted]

Not quite - not a player - only an attacking player

The Law says that were he an attacker, then he would be able to apply downward pressure and score a try - that's specific, and the Law doesn't mention that in relation to a defender.

But the Law book does cover a defender inexactly the same way as an attacking player.


Law 22.4

g) Player in touch or touch-ingoal.
If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the
opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.



LAW 22.5

BALL GROUNDED BY A DEFENDING PLAYER
(a) Touch down. When defending players are first to ground the ball in their in-goal, it results in
a touch down.
(b) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If defending players are in touch-in-goal, they can make
a touch down by grounding the ball in their in-goal provided they are not carrying the ball.