In goal KO ? / DBL?

[Dixie]

I still disagree.

You acknowledge that the area BDBL is treated at T-i-G, then you deny it in the next sentence.

In the scenario in Post #12, the ball is stationary on the ground, so any player touching it with a foot outside the in-goal area is responsible for putting the ball dead; the subsequent "swat" is moot

I see where you are going with that, but you've got some tricky negotiation of various bits of law to make it stick.

[LAWS]Law 19 definition: The ball is in touch when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.[/LAWS] If this is absolute, then there is no place in law for this:

[LAWS](g) Player in touch or touch-ingoal.
If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.[/LAWS]

or this, which you yourself quote:

[LAWS](b) Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If defending players are in touch-in-goal, they can make a touch down by grounding the ball in their in-goal provided they are not carrying the ball.[/LAWS]

I make sense of this by concluding that the definition in Law 19 does not apply in the context of grounding the ball in-goal - whether or not it is moving. You may take a different view. I'd like to hear it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Dixie.

IMO

1. Grounding the ball in the in-goal when the player has some part of his body grounded on the TIG line or the DBL, or in TIG or beyond the DBL, requires that the ball be in contact with the ground (it can be stationary or moving) when downward pressure is applied. If that happens the ball is dead and anything that happens to the ball after that is irrelevant.

2. If this player attempts to ground the ball when the ball is off the ground, then the moment he touches the ball, the ball is dead and anything that happens to the ball after that is irrelevant.

3. If this player attempts to pick up the ball, or attempts to do anything OTHER than attempting to apply downward pressure, then the moment he touches the ball, the ball is dead and anything that happens to the ball after that is irrelevant.

 

[TNT88]

So is this law isn't relevant in the in-goal?

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not
crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space
rising immediately above the touchline.

Edit: I suppose if the ball is stationary, this might not apply. Didn't read that part before.

In which case the player pushing the ball over the touch line would have to pick it up to get it over the line. Punching the ball might work though?

 

[Ian_Cook]

This is my understanding, where does it go wrong?

A player who is in touch can hit or kick the ball providing it's still in play.
A player with his foot TiG hits the ball.
The ball becomes dead when it touches something beyond the dead ball line (ie: the ground).
The player has deliberately hit it out, therefore penalty 5m in on the 15.

If he picked the ball up (or even scooped the ball up) instead of hitting it. Then the ball would have been out immediately.

[LAWS]LAW 19 DEFINITIONS
....
If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal. Such a player may knock the ball into the playing area.

If a player jumps and catches the ball, both feet must land in the playing area otherwise the ball is in touch or touch-in-goal.

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline
[/LAWS]

Note that the last paragraph about players in touch being able to knock or kick the ball, specifically does NOT mention TIG.

Is this deliberate or an oversight by the Law Writers?

If you can answer that, you'll have an answer to your question.

 

[OB..]

Is this deliberate or an oversight by the Law Writers?

If you can answer that, you'll have an answer to your question.

AS so often, the straight answer is simply that we do not know. However a referee has to make a decision, so (guess what?) I recommend making a sensible one, which in this case for me would mean treating TiG and touch the same way.

 

[Davet]

Note that the last paragraph about players in touch being able to knock or kick the ball, specifically does NOT mention TIG.

Is this deliberate or an oversight by the Law Writers?

Probably they never though anyone would be stupid enough to try it.

Who on earth is going to stand outside their own in-goal and prevent the ball going dead for a 22 DO, risking a Knock-on or even a try against.

 

[Jenson]

Scenario:

ball is stationery in-goal near to the TiG line. Ball has been put into in-goal by attacking team (Red).

Blue defender and Red attacker are shoulder to shoulder in foot race to the ball.

As the Red attacker is about to dive on the ball to score the try the Blue defender places one foot on TiG line and intentionally, deliberately and with gay abandon swats the ball over the DBL.

What is the call?

Mine is no try; restart with 22 drop out. Defender was out of field of play so first contact made the ball dead.

PK to Red. Possibly penalty try. Possibly YC

Penalty? The defender with a foot on or over the touch line may play the ball by kicking or knocking the ball. Just by touching the ball it does not become dead. If he catches it the ball becomes dead. Had the defender tapped / slapped / knocked / punched the ball towards his own dead ball line one of his own players, or opponents, could gather the ball , play continues. If the defender taps / slaps/ knocks the ball in the direction of the opponents DBL the ball has been knocked forward, 5m scrum attacking team. If the defender applies downward pressure it is TD 22 DO. The player deliberately swatted the ball into touch, (10.2(c)) PK.
There is a clear difference between “when the ball touches the line / anything / anyone beyond the line” and the player playing the ball. ie ball touching player and player touching ball. The player played the ball.


Penalty Try? – If the defender had not played the ball would the attacker have scored a try. From the scenario described I would say he probably would. Penalty try, YC.

 

[Davet]

Just by touching the ball it does not become dead

Except that it does.

UNLESS he knocks it back into the playing area before it crosses the plane of the line (and even that is only by analogy).

But he doesn't do the "UNLESS" thing, so it is dead the moment he touches it.

But as his coach I would be furious, if he could put a foot over the line then he could have simply kicked the ball, more quickly than bending to place a hand on it.

 

[Jenson]

I don't see that the ball becomes dead the moment he touches it. The ball has not crossed the plain of line of touch so he can legitimately knock the ball in any direction with foot, for eg, or any direction except forwards with hand or arm (but not hold it) even if he is standing in touch.

 

[OB..]

Except that it does.

UNLESS he knocks it back into the playing area before it crosses the plane of the line (and even that is only by analogy).

But he doesn't do the "UNLESS" thing, so it is dead the moment he touches it.

But as his coach I would be furious, if he could put a foot over the line then he could have simply kicked the ball, more quickly than bending to place a hand on it.

[LAWS]Law 19 Definitions [...] A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline.[/LAWS]There are two provisos, in bold. There is nothing about the direction in which he may kick or knock the ball. Other parts of the law cover that.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Agree with Jenson, PK to red for 10.2c. But, because blue defender is not in touch as per22.9a

A defending player who has part of one foot in in-goal is considered to have both feet in in-goal.

I know this should be in reference to the goal-line, but that is not specified in law.