Intentional Knock-on?

[smeagol]

Had an incident in a 7s game last weekend:

Red player puts his hand out to block a blue pass. Ball hits red player's arm and goes up about 10-15m in the air, red player catches it clean and runs it in while the blue captain is screaming for an intentional knock-on. IMO, for it to be an intentional knock-on, there has to be a knock-on, or is that wrong?

 

[Flish]

Juggling the ball counts as possession now (you can be tackled whilst juggling), so if ball has not yet hit the deck or another player then sounds fine to me.

 

[OB..]

[LAWS]11

• 3. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
• 4. It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

[/LAWS]

If the referee judges that the intention was merely to block the pass rather than catch the ball, then he should award a penalty for an intentional act that knocked the ball forward. The caveat about actually catching it does not apply.

 

[damo]

[LAWS]11

• 3. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
• 4. It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

[/LAWS]

If the referee judges that the intention was merely to block the pass rather than catch the ball, then he should award a penalty for an intentional act that knocked the ball forward. The caveat about actually catching it does not apply.

I agree. If the player has intentionally knocked the ball forward it does not matter if he subsequently catches it.

 

[Flish]

Ball went up not forward according to OP so that's just juggling to catch so ok surely? Regardless of intention, and I accept an element of 'you have to see it' but if it's not gone forward how can it be any form of knock on - intentional or otherwise?

 

[OB..]

Ball went up not forward according to OP so that's just juggling to catch so ok surely? Regardless of intention, and I accept an element of 'you have to see it' but if it's not gone forward how can it be any form of knock on - intentional or otherwise?

Technically you are correct, but to me the OP clearly implied the player was running forward when he contacted the ball.

 

[Taff]

Ball went up not forward according to OP so that's just juggling to catch so ok surely? Regardless of intention, and I accept an element of 'you have to see it' but if it's not gone forward how can it be any form of knock on - intentional or otherwise?

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree. :chin:

Saying that it's a deliberate knock-on when it isn't even a knock-on could be a hard one to sell.

 

[OB..]

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree. :chin:

Saying that it's a deliberate knock-on when it isn't even a knock-on could be a hard one to sell.

The law refers to an intentional knock forward. Being intentional, it cannot be an (accidental) knock-on.

In this respect I think the 2018 law is clearer than the 2017 one.

 

[didds]

the crux being it seems that you don;t sell it as a deliberate knock-on, but a deliberate knock forward.

didds

 

[Camquin]

OP does not say the player was moving forward - merely that they blocked the ball.
They could have had their feet were planted and only started to run after they caught it - which is why you have to be there.

The ball has to go forward. Even if a player intentionally plays the ball, if they only get a fingertip to it and it still goes backwards there is no offence.

It has to be C&O that it is intentional. If the player is attempting to catch the ball they are permited to juggle - although several people claim this is a new change it was in the law as far back as 1970.

If the player knocks the ball high in the air and forward and happens to catch it as it comes down - is that a juggle or an intentional kock forward.

As with all refereeing decisions it comes to what you see at the time.

If it looked wrong, blow and sell your decision.
If it looked fine to you, sell that - probably worth calling play on.

 

[Taff]

the crux being it seems that you don;t sell it as a deliberate knock-on, but a deliberate knock forward.

Does slapping the ball forward and catching it fit the definition of a Throw Forward?

A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward

To me, that suggests there needs to be an element of intent eg running up to a possible tackler, throwing the ball over his head, running round him and catching it the other side. And the sanction for that is a PK - hell gents, a PK sounds harsh to me for what was described in the OP. :biggrin: I can't see how he could have intended to slap the ball forward to himself; sure I can see it happening by accident.

 

[smeagol]

To clarify - red player was moving up, but not at any considerable pace. IMO, the player did not intentionally knock the ball forward, as the ball came off his forearm, not hand.

If it looked wrong, blow and sell your decision.
If it looked fine to you, sell that - probably worth calling play on.

The incident took place around red's 22, so the try was near-immediate. Blue captain ended up getting a yellow (for comparing me to a 12yo refereeing his first game), then a red (f*** you immediately followed the yellow).

 

[OB..]

If the player knocks the ball high in the air and forward and happens to catch it as it comes down - is that a juggle or an intentional kock forward

Many years ago juggling the ball would be treated as a knock-on. After the law was modified to allow it, and particularly after the rubric about catching it before (etc) was introduced some tried to argue that it was legal to knock the ball up in the air deliberately as long as you caught it.

I don't believe that was ever the case, and there certainly was a guideline at one time that if the ball went forward from a one-handed attempt to intercept, that was a PK offence.

It is a basic tenet of the game that you must not use your hands to advance the ball. I see no gain from trying to find ways round that.

 

[thepercy]

I agree. If the player has intentionally knocked the ball forward it does not matter if he subsequently catches it.

Law 11 is titled "Knock-on or thrown forward", should the laws under this section be read in that context?

Why did you post 11.4 if you are going to ignore it? Shouldn't points 3 and 4 be read in conjunction? He actually did gain possession, and he only needed a reasonable expectation that he would to avoid the PK.

 

[crossref]

11.3 seems completely clear to me

A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Clear as day but difficult to sell in a game changing decision, given how it has been interpreted over the years. Has anyone ever seen a TV penalty given for an intentional knock forward when it has been regathered.

 

[Dickie E]

11.3 seems completely clear to me

Blue #9 passes from base of scrum to Blue #10 but the pass is a shocker such that Blue #10 is never going to catch it but, in his desperation, intentionally gets a finger tip to it. Is this a penalty as per 11.3?

I'm in the "I'd have to see it" camp.

 

[Pinky]

Blue #9 passes from base of scrum to Blue #10 but the pass is a shocker such that Blue #10 is never going to catch it but, in his desperation, intentionally gets a finger tip to it. Is this a penalty as per 11.3?

I'm in the "I'd have to see it" camp.

I'm also in the have to see it camp, but I can in my mind make a distinction between deliberately playing the ball, but it going forward like the 10 above, and that's a scrum from the player who deliberately knocks the ball forward, eg a punch, or throws the ball forward and I am happy that that is a PK.

 

[Dickie E]

I'm also in the have to see it camp, but I can in my mind make a distinction between deliberately playing the ball, but it going forward like the 10 above, and that's a scrum from the player who deliberately knocks the ball forward, eg a punch, or throws the ball forward and I am happy that that is a PK.

I agree and that requires a more nuanced understanding of the game than is provided by 11.3

 

[crossref]

I agree and that requires a more nuanced understanding of the game than is provided by 11.3

I think that's exactly what 11.3 says