Interesting Tap Tactics

[crossref]

You'd be surprised how many of these kids, despite having played for 5 or 6 years, still don't know how to take a tap properly but once you tell them at the first tap that it must leave their hands or be tapped (and move slightly) on the ground, you don't see another tap taken improperly all game :biggrin:

viper - they are getting one over on you -- they DO know !

 

[crossref]

Given the thoughts around the taking of the tap, I feel I might try something different tomorrow and actually ensure that they follow the laws on this one tomorrow - I'll include it very quickly in my PMB saying that I'll act on it from the start. I'll also have a ref coach there so we'll see what he has to say when I blow a scrum in the 13B standard game.:

good for you. that's exactly what I do.

But you have shifted the goal posts, are we talking about U14 schools game (OP) or U13B club friendly. Obviously if you make them younger and younger U12, U11 at some point the approach will be different.

But for me when I ref U13 (A or B) it's always a league game and I'll always talk about it in the PMB and make sure both teams realise they have had the warning. Invariably the coaches listen to the PMB. Very often they will immediately reinforce my message on quick taps.

 

[ChrisR]

The reason that players don't take a tap correctly is two fold. Firstly it's not enforced by the coach in practice. I'm guilty of that. My bad. However the players know the difference so ,secondly, they will get it right if expected by the referee.

I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time.

The rationale is, again, that a penalty restart requires a kick and a kick has not happened. If a player just picked up the ball and started running with it would you award a scrum to the ops? No, because it has to restart with a kick.

Note that 21.2(a) does not have a sanction attached for taking from the improper place. Just do it again from the correct place, please.

 

[Browner]

The reason that players don't take a tap correctly is two fold. Firstly it's not enforced by the coach in practice. I'm guilty of that. My bad. However the players know the difference so ,secondly, they will get it right if expected by the referee.

I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time.

The rationale is, again, that a penalty restart requires a kick and a kick has not happened. If a player just picked up the ball and started running with it would you award a scrum to the ops? No, because it has to restart with a kick.

Note that 21.2(a) does not have a sanction attached for taking from the improper place. Just do it again from the correct place, please.

I can understand your point on the extreamness of the turnover for something that seems relatively minor, But currently 21.4(d) does have sanction to apply, ' location' 21.2.(a) and 'how actioned' 21.4(d) arent comparable , refs dictate the mark location so some allowance for misunderstanding has to apply, whereas players solely dictate how the kick is executed independent of referee involvement.

 

[viper492]

good for you. that's exactly what I do.

But you have shifted the goal posts, are we talking about U14 schools game (OP) or U13B club friendly. Obviously if you make them younger and younger U12, U11 at some point the approach will be different.

But for me when I ref U13 (A or B) it's always a league game and I'll always talk about it in the PMB and make sure both teams realise they have had the warning. Invariably the coaches listen to the PMB. Very often they will immediately reinforce my message on quick taps.

I'm not sure what you're referring to re: friendly vs schools... Perhaps differences between here and England?
The game in OP was 14B (I forgot to mention that - apologies) and for us the school games are essentially friendlies until the players are in the first XV or 16A's where there is actually a proper competition - until then there isn't really anything spectacular to play for. The junior club rugby, at least, is much more serious and played competitively and at a higher standard than most of the schoolboy rugby. Having reffed a 13A school game yesterday I would have compared it to a 13B/C grade club game and same is to be said of a 14B level game.

 

[crossref]

I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time. .

Marauder I think this is a big mistake - -your job as a referee is to apply the Laws, regardless of whether you think the Law is fair or appropriate.
In some scenarios the Law is ambiguous, and then we all make judgements according to the spirit of the game, but here the Law is perfectly clear - an incorrectly taken tap = scrum turnover, and (whether you agree with it or not) your job is to apply the Law

Othewise, if we all ignore Laws we don't agree with, chaos ensues.

 

[crossref]

I'm not sure what you're referring to re: friendly vs schools... Perhaps differences between here and England?
The game in OP was 14B (I forgot to mention that - apologies) and for us the school games are essentially friendlies until the players are in the first XV or 16A's where there is actually a proper competition - until then there isn't really anything spectacular to play for. The junior club rugby, at least, is much more serious and played competitively and at a higher standard than most of the schoolboy rugby. Having reffed a 13A school game yesterday I would have compared it to a 13B/C grade club game and same is to be said of a 14B level game.

in England a 'friendly' means a game that isn't part of a competition (a league or cup). A friendly is a fixture arranged between the two clubs (or schools) and played just for it's own sake.

friendlies are generally slightly more relaxed - but not necessarily - they can really vary.

At one extreme is a pre-season training game, which might be very ad hod - 4 x 20 minute sessions, squads of 25-30 players, rolling subs, coaches trying different combinations.

At the other extreme is the annual derby game that you might traditionaly play with your biggest rival , which is as serious or competitive as any league game.

 

[ChrisR]

crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again. Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?

As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark. If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum? Incorrectly in my opinion.

When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back? "Materiality" is not in the definitions but we apply it. Get my drift?

 

[crossref]

crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again. Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?

As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark. If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum? Incorrectly in my opinion.

When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back? "Materiality" is not in the definitions but we apply it. Get my drift?

OB already pointed you to the Law here --

[LAWS]21.4 (d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark.
[...]
Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.
[/LAWS]

 

[ChrisR]

You are ducking the questions in my post.

 

[crossref]

You are ducking the questions in my post.

yes, but your questions are about different scenarios!

 

[viper492]

in England a 'friendly' means a game that isn't part of a competition (a league or cup). A friendly is a fixture arranged between the two clubs (or schools) and played just for it's own sake.

friendlies are generally slightly more relaxed - but not necessarily - they can really vary.

At one extreme is a pre-season training game, which might be very ad hod - 4 x 20 minute sessions, squads of 25-30 players, rolling subs, coaches trying different combinations.

At the other extreme is the annual derby game that you might traditionaly play with your biggest rival , which is as serious or competitive as any league game.

Ok - I knew what a friendly game was, just wasn't sure what you meant exactly when you used it in reference to the club game. Thank-you for the explanation though - tells me something about the game being slightly differently run in different places Essentially for us in Sydney all junior club games and most of the senior rugby is part of competition of some kind (or at least all the rugby I've ever been exposed to here is!) and most schoolboy games aren't necessarily part of a competition but are still played quite seriously as if they were any other competition match (or at least IMO would be considered a friendly - having played them before).

Marauder - I'm with Crossref - it is our job to apply the laws (of course it is also our job to interpret the laws - with guidance from the various referee associations, the IRB etc.).

Just my opinion to the ideas you put in - if a player picked up the ball and just ran with it (I'm assuming this is a player who, by his actions, has obviously heard and noticed the referee blowing his whistle) there could also now be at least one additional sanction that I can think of off the top of my head - FK for time wasting in addition to not taking the tap correctly.
Regarding mark of the tap - there is no sanction listed in 21.2 for the team failing to take the penalty at the correct mark and therefore I would understand there can be no sanction for it except being made to take it again at the mark unless we want to make some new sanction exist. For a kick into touch, as long as it's within a half metre or so of the line of the mark, I'll be happy and the same applies for a tap - as long as it's behind the mark. To the part about taking the tap before a mark is given - The players must wait for a mark to be given to take the tap - unless I had stated otherwise in the PMB (e.g. take at last feet of scrum when scrum penalty if you want to take quickly)


EDIT: This has moved a bit fftopic: from the OP!

 

[OB..]

A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again.

Why? There is a specific sanction in the laws for an incorrect kick.

Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?

There is no justification at all for that. 10.4 (m) unless it really is a game where you ar coaching as much as refereeing.

As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark.

The player is only required to wait for the referee to indicate he mark if the kick is being moved forward 10m.

If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum?

If it is a genuine misunderstanding as to where the mark is, call him back to the mark. Otherwise he is cheating.

When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back?

Irrelevant.

 

[Browner]

This really is simple...

"Where" 21.2
Get the location wrong, (ie outside the refs materiality tolerance of his mark ) & you get to have another go.

"How" . 21.3
This prescribes how a PK or FK is executed/taken, fail this ( including running off with the ball,or bouncing it on your head/chin/thigh/arm/nose/chest , or passing it to a teammate) and you've gifted possession to your opponents via a scrum feed. & this is a 'schoolboy error' for sure. Law is unyielding on this.

Marauders claim that the absence of a 'technically compliant kick' negates a restart having taken place, doesnt make much sense when viewed against explicit laws.

Restart kick tolerances under L13 are differently sanctioned.

 

[ChrisR]

yes, but your questions are about different scenarios!

Yes, indeed they are. So?

 

[RobLev]

crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again? ...

Marauder; have you watched the video that the IRB have chosen to use to illustrate Law 21.4(d)?

 

[didds]

A very elaborate move by U14 is (in my opinion) mostly for the purpose of making the coaches look clever.

and quite often if the penalty tap move they had when they played 20 years earlier.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that in fact probably u13 and u14 (as played in England anyway) are possibly the "only" age groups you will see this. younger Ags don;t have the (generically!) base skills to operate it and play on such a reduced pitch that basic defense is a case of standing still until an opponent falls over you. Older AGs can kick to touch and gain ground.

didds

 

[ChrisR]

Marauder; have you watched the video that the IRB have chosen to use to illustrate Law 21.4(d)?

No, can you give me a link? Searching on dial-up is too painful.

 

[ChrisR]

Crossref, I think we end up at the same place through different paths.

You get compliance by taking away the penalty and giving the ops a scrum.

I'll get the same compliance by not accepting an incorrect kick, or from the wrong place. I'm not prepared to go from a penalty for foul play to a scrum for the foul play perpetrators because of a minor technical offence that is rarely called by other refs.

I do think my approach is colored by refereeing very inexperienced players at HS or younger.

 

[SimonSmith]

If it's a "minor" offence, it should be easy to accomplish - there's no excuse for stuffing it up.

They've been given a pressure free play at the ball. If they can't get it right, they don't deserve to retain possession