Interferring with scrum half at a ruck

[Norfolk_Ref]

At a match today:

at a ruck the ball was secured, the scrum half picked the ball up with both hands. as he started to move away a player reached over the top of the ruck and hit the ball out of his hands. He was on his feet and was a big lad hence the ability to reach over the ruck. Pen or not?

I've tried looking for the law - anyone can give me the law number.

Off topic but I'm trying to get a better idea of crossing. can anyone provide a link to youtube videos with obvious examples??

Thanks

Lewis

 

[Andrew1974]

A lot of potential infringements, depending on all sorts of details.

If he diliberatly knocked the ball out then potentiallly a deliberate knock on? (perhaps a bit harsh that one!)

However if he did knock it out, and it went forward than it is a knock on.

Even if it was the arm rather than the ball (or even if it was the ball) that was the point of contact was the defending player bound on to the ruck before the ball came out...if not was he behind the rearmost foot...if not he was loitering in an offside position, which is perhaps why he could reach (as well as being a big lad)

I'm sure there are lots of other possiblilites as well...

 

[Norfolk_Ref]

he was behind the ruck, had took no part in it and just reached over and knocked the ball straight down out of the SH's hands

 

[dave_clark]

arguably a deliberate knock on.

 

[Norfolk_Ref]

arguably a deliberate knock on.

the ball didn't go forward. it dropped straight down

 

[dave_clark]

ok, but is that how the ref saw it?

 

[Norfolk_Ref]

he didn't. he turned his back on it as he assumed the ball was going out to the backs. That's why i didn't know what the decision would/should have been

 

[Dixie]

As a matter of policy, I will give a PK for a deliberate knock-on unless I am vrery clear that the nball went backwards. "Straight down" is 90 degrees, no more no less. 91 degrees is a knock-on, 89 degrees (if I can judge such a fine margin) is OK. My ability to act as a reliable protractor has declined with age; the slapper probably needs to hit 85 degrees to be confident.

I mention it's a matter of policy. For me, an ex-centre-cum-wing, the game is one for 15 players. I know that the forwards resent anyone wearing double digits, and do their best to keep the ball away from them. However, it gets cold and lonely out there on the flanks of the game, so you need at least some hope of getting the ball. For that reason, the SH needs a little help in certain circumstances. If the best you can do is slap the ball out of the SH's hands, you'd better be bloody sure it goes backwards. The slap is abolutely deliberate; the probability given the mechanics is that it will go forward. If it does, you take ythe consequences of an act that will most likely result in the ball going forward. Whether you do it to prevent a pass from arriving at its intended recipient, or to prevet the pass starting on its journey, you get the same outcome - PK, deliberate knock-on. Hopefully, you'll get the message, and play will be allowed to develop.

 

[Davet]

A good 9 won't let the ball get near enough to the opposition to let this happen.

 

[Dixie]

A good 9 won't let the ball get near enough to the opposition to let this happen.

But how many of us referee "good 9's"?

 

[Ian_Cook]

This one really pisses me off; its a negative action.

I'm with Dixie on this, I would take it to be deliberate knock forward unless I definitely see it knocked backwards.

Another one that annoys me is No. 9's at the scrum, in particular, when the non-throwing SH stands all over the throwing SH, shouldering and barging him as he is trying to put the ball in. Elite referees don't seem to do anything about it when it happens. We wouldn't allow an opposing hooker to harass the thrower at a line-out, so why allow it at a scrum.


IMO, given the fiery nature of No. 9's, I can see a potential flashpoint; a SH copping a mouthful of elbow. I would to have see a trial if the Law that made the SH offside line run through the centre of the scrum.

 

[crossref]

Another one that annoys me is No. 9's at the scrum, in particular, when the non-throwing SH stands all over the throwing SH, shouldering and barging him as he is trying to put the ball in. Elite referees don't seem to do anything about it when it happens. We wouldn't allow an opposing hooker to harass the thrower at a line-out, so why allow it at a scrum.


IMO, given the fiery nature of No. 9's, I can see a potential flashpoint; a SH copping a mouthful of elbow. I would to have see a trial if the Law that made the SH offside line run through the centre of the scrum.

I have had a lot of that this season
Last game I ended up making the non throwing SH stand a metre back as neither of them could restrain themselves

 

[Andy P]

If the big lad reached over and grabbed the scrum half before he plays the ball and pulls him in, what is the offense?

 

[OB..]

If the big lad reached over and grabbed the scrum half before he plays the ball and pulls him in, what is the offense?

[LAWS]10.4 (f) Playing an opponent without the ball.[/LAWS]

 

[Simon Thomas]

A good 9 won't let the ball get near enough to the opposition to let this happen.

I used to make very sure any stray arms etc were secured by team-mates before executing the pass / ball pick up.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Another one that annoys me is No. 9's at the scrum, in particular, when the non-throwing SH stands all over the throwing SH, shouldering and barging him as he is trying to put the ball in. Elite referees don't seem to do anything about it when it happens. We wouldn't allow an opposing hooker to harass the thrower at a line-out, so why allow it at a scrum.

IMO, given the fiery nature of No. 9's, I can see a potential flashpoint; a SH copping a mouthful of elbow. I would to have see a trial if the Law that made the SH offside line run through the centre of the scrum.

Ian - rubbish. This isn't tiddlewinks or ice dancing - the #9 battle is an integral part of the match, and it goes both ways. Any suggestion of making the offside line as per U15 rugby at the centre of the scrum is dumbing down the Game.

If a non-throwing-in SH is all over the throwing-in one, then let them sort it out between them. One of the many physical and mental battles that take place on a rugby pitch.

BTW I had a great chat with a player's dad on Saturday - we vaguely recognised each other so said hello post match and it turned out he played for London Scottish in 1980s and that we had knocked lumps out of each other at 15s and 7s for a few seasons.

 

[OB..]

If a non-throwing-in SH is all over the throwing-in one, then let them sort it out between them. One of the many physical and mental battles that take place on a rugby pitch.

There are limits.

I was at the Gloucester v Mont de Marsan match recently. As Jimmy Cowan was about to feed the scrum, the French scrum half was actually on his right. As Cowan moved to get the ball from the base of the scrum, his opponent grabbed his shoulders and threw him to the ground. No reaction from the officials, but the scrum had to be reset and the referee did tell the French scrum half to stand in the proper position this time.

I would have marked a referee down for not dealing with the foul play. Apart from anything else it is likely to lead to further illegalities.

 

[crossref]

If a non-throwing-in SH is all over the throwing-in one, then let them sort it out between them. One of the many physical and mental battles that take place on a rugby pitch.

.

well, they have to do that soemwhere I can't see them, not at the mouth of the tunnel each scrum.

It was crouch - squabble- touch - squabble - set - squabble.
over and over.
I lost patience quite quickly

 

[TheBFG]

if the two #9's want to cock around i usually come in with the line of....

"when you 2 have stopped cocking about these 16 guys (pointing over my shoulder at the packs) want a game of rugby"

 

[crossref]

if the two #9's want to cock around i usually come in with the line of....

"when you 2 have stopped cocking about these 16 guys (pointing over my shoulder at the packs) want a game of rugby"

I said almost exactly the same thing...