IRE-FRA - double movement?

[Rich_NL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIrN2KSh2aI

I missed the match, so have only seen the highlights... but surely the first Irish try was a double movement/not releasing?

 

[DocY]

Yeah, by the letter of the law I think you're right, but I'm not sure if it's really in the spirit.

I pointed it out in the pub and nobody else knew what I was talking about, so I suspect that if it had been disallowed it'd have been a talking point.

 

[Dickie E]

Agree. No try. Critical error.

 

[Flish]

Sufficiently held on the ground to be a tackle? Certainly not held stationary. Can argue it either way I think.

Also held by the neck so beam him up and Penalty Try (I know, reaching!)

 

[didds]

Hmm.
But was it a tackle?
Seems to me Best goes very low to try and drive through the 9 and the 9s hands/arms on him are after Best is on the way down as he gets too low in his drive. His knees deffo hit the ground, but I really would't say its because of the 9's efforts.

I won;t lose sleep over it either way, but I think you are hard pushed to call that held and brought to ground. At best (see what I did there?) going to ground and is grabbed.

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

Sufficiently held on the ground to be a tackle? Certainly not held stationary. Can argue it either way I think.

I don't think he needs to be held stationary, does he?

But was it a tackle?
Seems to me Best goes very low to try and drive through the 9 and the 9s hands/arms on him are after Best is on the way down as he gets too low in his drive. His knees deffo hit the ground, but I really would't say its because of the 9's efforts.

So you're OK with the ref calling "no tackle" when your player holds an opponent and they go to ground, because the opponent was falling anyway?

Concrete observations: he's on his feet, he's then held by an opponent, then he's then off his feet while still held... I don't fancy making every potential tackle a judgement call on intent, ability and balance.

 

[irishref]

That was my initial thought on seeing it live, I was in fact worried the try would not stand.

But on the slo-mo replay I don't think Best wasn't held sufficiently on the ground and got up immediately to make the last bit of distance on foot, not shuffling or crawling along the ground.

We had more tries disallowed or butchered ourselves so absolutely no impact on the game either.

 

[L'irlandais]

The team of 4 had a very slow start. Two minutes after the Rory Best “incident” they were awarding a try to the French. When everyone, including the French players were positioning themselves for a scrum for the blatant knock on. The match referee hadn’t seen it. He even let himself be conned by Green9 who was retreating to the 10meter line for the put in, when the KO occurred just out the 22.

NO TRY
6 mins: The TMO clearly sees that Penaud knocked it on.
An explainer. A crosskick was sent to the right wing. Larmour was under it but Penaud sprung highest, failing to collect and knocking it on in the process.
The Irish full back stopped and then Penaud raced onto it - but not before casting a clear backwards glance himself - popping it inside for the try.
The TMO needed on look to see the knock forward and it's an Irish scrum.


TRY
5 mins: Ireland 7-5 France
Is it a try? Confusion reigns. Larmour gets isolated and the Irish players appeared to stop. They're convinced Penaud knocked it on in lead-up.

 

[TheBFG]

If Best had been in mid-field and held by Fra players, they would have been screaming "tackle, they've got to release"!

Try play on!

 

[Rich_NL]

Looks like I need to find the full match online!

 

[Rich_NL]

If Best had been in mid-field and held by Fra players, they would have been screaming "tackle, they've got to release"!

Try play on!

I'm honestly not sure of your point, here. Could you explain please?

 

[TheBFG]

I'm honestly not sure of your point, here. Could you explain please?

Technically he's brought to ground, but kind of rides the tackle, so most would give it, but the issue is that as i said, if that had been mid-field (i.e. not going for a try), ref and players would have probably called "tackle". One of the issues of the knee on the ground = tackle :shrug:

 

[didds]

I don't think he needs to be held stationary, does he?

Concrete observations: he's on his feet, he's then held by an opponent, then he's then off his feet while still held... I don't fancy making every potential tackle a judgement call on intent, ability and balance.

we're going to have to agree to disagree. The 9s actions did not bring him to ground IMO. Its not concrete IMO.

That said - I'm not overly bothered either way. The missed forward (scoring) pass by the AR for Wales' first try v Scotland when less than 5m from it is a bigger critical error IMO. I'm no doubt in a minority of 1 on that - as usual (Same AR missed another forward pass later on the 1st half in a similar position)

didds

 

[didds]

That was my initial thought on seeing it live, I was in fact worried the try would not stand.

But on the slo-mo replay I don't think Best wasn't held sufficiently on the ground.

AIUI you don't have to be held on the ground. Its "held and brought to ground" rather than "brought to ground and held".

The nuance here is that (IMO) he wasn't held and brought to ground - there was some Blue arms as he was falling but he'd have ended up on the ground if the 9 wasn't there anyway. IMO.

didds

 

[crossref]

Indeed you CANNOT hold someone once they are on the floor. Have to release

 

[menace]

The missed forward (scoring) pass by the AR for Wales' first try v Scotland when less than 5m from it is a bigger critical error IMO. I'm no doubt in a minority of 1 on that - as usual (Same AR missed another forward pass later on the 1st half in a similar position)

didds

not to hijack the thread...and I didn't see the game. what makes you think it should be all on the AR to make forward pass calls? But as read, if the ref was ball line running as he should have been then forward passes are ALL on him (the AR should only call in the absolute f@cking howlers).

 

[didds]

fair points Menace - in which case the ref made the critical error. I called the AR because he was in a better position than the ref.

but you are spot on.

critical error.

didds

 

[Zebra1922]

When I first saw it I thought it was a penalty as I though Best had put the ball on the ground. On second view I saw the ball was always in the air and thought it was all OK. Now on third viewing (with this thread thoughts) I would agree this is a double movement. He has been tackled, tackler is still in contact with the player when the tackled player is no the floor, therefore the tackled player must release.

I can understand the arguments of was he tackled, i.e. did the 9 bring him to ground or did he bring himself to ground, but on balance I'm happy to call this a tackle and therefore a penalty offence.

But given the judgement involved and it not being clear cut, I don't think you can challenge the on field call or say it was wrong. Matter of judgement, mine differs to the referee, but only on third viewing in slow-mo. On field, full speed? Happy with the call.

 

[L'irlandais]

Looking at the touchline view, Green 2 stumbles, then regains his feet to score.

Doesn’t look to me as if he was tackled and brought to ground.. Even if you judge that he was, he certainly wasn’t held on the ground.

 

[ChuckieB]

That he was essentially able to regain his feet with continuous momentum without use of his hands, (he was effectively leveraging against the French player even though his right hand did touch the ground) I think it is relatively straight forward is easy to argue that the tackle was not completed and he had the right to continue.

It's like asking the correct question around a questionable try, and depending on the phrasing of the question you might ask yourself, you might come up with differing and contradictory answers.

Was he tackled? - in the laws
Was the tackle completed? - not in the laws but relevant to every tackle situation