[6N] Ireland v England

L'irlandais

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:eng: Congratulations to England on their tournament win. :clap:
 

Dickie E


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did the ref end the 1st half on a not straight lineout throw? I thought that was a no-no
 

Paule23


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did the ref end the 1st half on a not straight lineout throw? I thought that was a no-no

I think so, but why would it be a no no? Lineout Infringement that does not lead to a penalty after time has elapsed = time?
 

winchesterref


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Game did not restart correctly?
Ball thrown not straight deliberately?
 

ChuckieB

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The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal.
 

Camquin

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If the ref thinks it was a deliberate not straight surely that would be a penalty anyway.
There is clarification that a restart has to restart the game, but I thought that only applied to law 13.
 

Ian_Cook


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I think I understand what DickeE is thinking

[LAWS]19.7 INCORRECT THROW-IN
(a) If the throw-in at a lineout is incorrect, the opposing team has the choice of throwing in at a
lineout or a scrum on the 15-metre line. If they choose the throw-in to the lineout and it is
again incorrect, a scrum is formed. The team that took the first throw-in throws in the ball.[/LAWS]

Ending the half would deny the opposition their entitled option.
 
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ChrisR

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Technically, play has resumed. If the throw (or catch) goes to the opponents then advantage or play on would be appropriate. Therefore I think the half has ended.

However, a clearly deliberate offence would be a PK.
 
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Dickie E


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Technically, play has resumed. If the throw (or catch) goes to the opponents then advantage or play on would be appropriate. Therefore I think the half has ended.

However, a clearly deliberate offence would be a PK.

knew I'd seen it somewhere ...

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=10&union=Paddy O'Brien&clarification=1018

[LAWS]Law 19.10
Unsuccessful end to a lineout.

A lineout cannot be ended on a crooked throw-in. The non-offending team has an option of another lineout with their team to throw in or a scrum 15 meters in through the line of touch.[/LAWS]
 

ChrisR

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Now that's interesting. Thanx, Dickie. Do you think that applies only to end of half scenarios or does it imply that you can't play advantage? Or does it mean that if the throw is so crook that . . . ? I'm puzzled.

OK, now I've read the link. Now I'm only puzzled if advantage is played and the opponents get clean possession. Then the lineout is over.
 
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ChuckieB

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5,7 (e) Other time regulations
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal.

It's all here!

........assuming the throw is not subject to foul play of course!
 

The Fat


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Yep, that's a Claytons Clarification.
Read Paddy O'Brien's full text, complete with Law references etc., and the tell me exactly which part the Members are saying is correct with this answer,

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
The Designated Members have reviewed this request for clarification and the interpretation above is correct.
 

Dickie E


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The Designated Members are agreeing with this statement:

The Law book is specific that there are six ways a lineout can end (Law 19.9 (b)), and the ball not being thrown straight is not one of them. It is the coaches’ view, and my view, that the lineout is therefore incomplete so the match cannot end until the scrum has been awarded, or the non-offending team chooses another lineout with their throw.

Interestingly this appears to contradict clarification 3 of 2009:

[LAWS]Situation 2
1. The ball is kicked in touch by Team A.
2. After the lineout has been formed, there is the siren indicating the end of the match (real playing time).
3. The referee allows for this lineout to be played.
4. The Team B thrower does not throw the ball straight.
5. The referee blows the whistle.

The “technical” decision to be made would be to give the choice to Team A between a new lineout or a scrum.

Question:
Does the referee have to give the choice to the opposing team (lineout to be redone or scrum) or does he have to blow for the end of the match?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Situation 2
The referee ends the match as there has been an offence that ensures that the ball is dead after the lineout has been completed and therefore the match ends in accordance with Law 5.7 (e). [/LAWS]

Presumably a 2016 clarification trumps a 2009 clarification :shrug:
 
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crossref


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Paddy wasn't really asking for a clarification so much as for a change in the Law.
I am not sure what the response means

If they did adopt Paddy suggestion, it's not clear what would happen next... options and a scrum? Or take it again
 
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ChuckieB

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The ball is dead after an incorrect throw.

it's not about whether the line out has been completed or not!

however the 2016 clarification makes it very clear......

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the referee deemed the ball had been deliberately thrown not straight, it is a penalty kick,[ but on this occasion there was insufficient reason to think that].

nothing to worry about for the non infringing team except the extent to which the official is duped as to the authenticity of the throw!

[/FONT]
 

ChuckieB

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Paddy wasn't really asking for a clarification so much as for a change in the Law.
I am not sure what the response means

If they did adopt Paddy suggestion, it's not clear what would happen next... options and a scrum? Or take it again

No need to be clear about a non-existent option.

half over or penalty kick for a deliberate incorrect throw!
 
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CrouchTPEngage


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49 mins. Ruck just inside Ireland's half. Players compete but end up all lying on the ground. The 2 players remaining ON their feet are Ben Youngs ( with the ball at his feet ) and Ireland's Jack McGrath. McGrath walk thru the middle of the ruck and goes for Ben Youngs.
Penalty is awarded to England and 3 points taken.
Now, I am aware I am to always protect the 9 at the back of a ruck. i.e. dont allow defenders to attempt to pull the 9 into the ruck.
However, in this specific situation, it looked like McGrath was harshly penalised. I mean , its not his fault the England didnt have enough players protecting the ball.
What do we think here ? I've seen 2 schools of thought. Some refs say the 9 is unplayable and should be protected.
Some say, the 9 is protected so long as the ruck exists and , once it has ended (i.e. no more players on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball) then you can go for the 9.
I would tend to lean towards the latter interpretation rather than the former. It should , at least, encourage the 9 to get on with his pass quickly.
Advice please ?
 

Phil E


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If McGrath walks through the middle of the ruck on his own who is he bound to?

[LAWS](b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The
bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body
of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

So he is either joining a ruck without binding = PK; or he is offside for not joining the ruck = PK.
 

Rich_NL

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If the players on the ground had moved away from the ball as they were meant to, surely the ball would have been out of any ruck and back in open play?
 
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