Ireland v Wales “No onfield decision”

[Volun-selected]

Game clock at 42:49 and Wales drive over a maul. Ball hidden under the dog pile so ref calls the TMO for views.

TMO reads back “Onfield decision is a try…” and the Ref immediately corrects with “No onfield decision”. The TMO confirms as no decision and carries on.

New protocol after the Scotland debacle last round?

 

[crossref]

I hope so !
The on field decision was always a poor idea

 

[didds]

There has been no (to my knowledge anyway) public announcement of a different protocol.

They make it up as they go along.

 

[Decorily]

Maybe it's simply a case of referee couldn't possibly make an on field decision ( other than the default!) and so left the TMO the leeway to make a decision.

 

[BikingBud]

Game clock at 42:49 and Wales drive over a maul. Ball hidden under the dog pile so ref calls the TMO for views.

TMO reads back “Onfield decision is a try…” and the Ref immediately corrects with “No onfield decision”. The TMO confirms as no decision and carries on.

New protocol after the Scotland debacle last round?

Surely the onfield decision is "I cannot definitely award a try" and if that cannot happen the default is held up.

And as we mentioned before this is all about communicating accurately and effectively, so the referee should advise "I am deferring to you to see if there is C+O evidence of a legal grounding"

Referee should manage the discussion, to ensure they get evidence to support a decision, not abdicate to TMO.

 

[crossref]

"

Referee should manage the discussion, to ensure they get evidence to support a decision, not abdicate to TMO.

I disagree now
Once we have gone to video analysis , then the decision is best taken by the guy in the van with a great view of several high Def screens, lots of assistants and full access to and control of all the technology,

 

[Dickie E]

Surely the onfield decision is "I cannot definitely award a try" and if that cannot happen the default is held up.

In that case, and in the interest of clear communication, he may as well just say "no try"

 

[crossref]

In that case, and in the interest of clear communication, he may as well just say "no try"

That's what you do when you don't have a TMO

 

[Dickie E]

I disagree now
Once we have gone to video analysis , then the decision is best taken by the guy in the van with a great view of several high Def screens, lots of assistants and full access to and control of all the technology,

yes, I agree. Like with cricket. If DRS is invoked, the onfield official plays no further part until the 3rd umpire says "Fred, you're on camera now, please change your decision".

 

[shebeen]

Game clock at 42:49 and Wales drive over a maul. Ball hidden under the dog pile so ref calls the TMO for views.

TMO reads back “Onfield decision is a try…” and the Ref immediately corrects with “No onfield decision”. The TMO confirms as no decision and carries on.

New protocol after the Scotland debacle last round?

I immediately wondered on that one. This area has become such a mess, and players now all dive over the area to make it even harder. Often the ref will be inspecting the bodies removing themselves like a crime scene to check the grounding 10-15 seconds after the whistle has gone.
There should be space for three decisions; call either way or "I'm really not sure, look for some C&O".



And i think it is high time to get a ball that is different colour to player clothing. lumo orange/yellow please? Remember white is a recent development after 150 years of dark brown leather.

 

[didds]

is there a link to this alleged protocol. Because it seems that yes they do make it up as they go along if not - what makes the REAL difference between a pile of bodies and "I cant see anything", and a pile of bodies with a square centimetre of ball somewhere visible close to the ground and "on field decision no try" ?

 

[BikingBud]

In that case, and in the interest of clear communication, he may as well just say "no try"

My point being if he has not got enough evidence to award a try then he must say "No try" or "held up" same thing for me but definitely not "no decision".

If there is no decision then there is nothing to stop play for! And we have WWE in the in-goal!

 

[BikingBud]

I disagree now
Once we have gone to video analysis , then the decision is best taken by the guy in the van with a great view of several high Def screens, lots of assistants and full access to and control of all the technology,

If they decide to go there then this needs changing:

• Duties of the referee during a match
  
  5. Within the playing enclosure:
  
  a. The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. The referee must apply the laws of the game fairly in every match.​

Hence the importance of the communication, to establish the level of evidence that RAs and TMO may be able to provide to support the judgment.

We started off with coded messages eg "Question 2", and we never knew what was occurring we are at risk of returning to that situation.

 

[BikingBud]

I asked previously about use of technology.

A sponsor is paying lots of money to get its name on the smart ball that tells us useless stats, "territory gained" that only a coaching team devoid of any real attacking intent would seek to exploit in supporting a misled tactic of kick tennis. Could look at how many return metres and tries the opposition got following poor handling or mishandling, see Calcutta Cup for C+O evidence.

But perhaps a better use would be to investigate use for accuracy of proximity to the goal line and being short, on and over. And then differentiate between soft body parts and hard ground to determine location and grounding, could also cover a whole range of Law 21 judgments.

As @shebeen mentions unpicking a pile up doesn't really work nowadays.

 

[BikingBud]

yes, I agree. Like with cricket. If DRS is invoked, the onfield official plays no further part until the 3rd umpire says "Fred, you're on camera now, please change your decision".

I think the hint is in the name Decision Review System whereas what we have in rugby, given the Laws as currently written, is a decision support system.

On field cricket umpires tend to have made a decision, mostly catches and LBW and the team captains use their prerogative to challenge those "decisions". Yes occasionally there is an off-field umpire review preceded by a soft call, run out or low catch, but the evidence needs to be compelling to overturn, which would also happen in rugby eg forward pass or offside in front of grubber kick, obstruction etc, TMO calls it in shows the video, referee reviews and adjusts the decision as necessary.

Giving captains 1 referral per match was trialled but has been scrapped

 

[Locke]

There should be space for three decisions; call either way or "I'm really not sure, look for some C&O".

There is, actually.

is there a link to this alleged protocol.

Attached

In such instances where the TO4 are unable to establish an on field decision of “Try” or “No Try”, the referee does have at their disposal the ability to indicate that the on field team are unsure as to whether a try has been scored nor not, and request the TMO to provide angles from which they can collectively make a more accurate decision.

 

[SimonSmith]

yes, I agree. Like with cricket. If DRS is invoked, the onfield official plays no further part until the 3rd umpire says "Fred, you're on camera now, please change your decision".

 

[didds]

There is, actually.


Attached

In such instances where the TO4 are unable to establish an on field decision of “Try” or “No Try”, the referee does have at their disposal the ability to indicate that the on field team are unsure as to whether a try has been scored nor not, and request the TMO to provide angles from which they can collectively make a more accurate decision.

is the To4 not including the TMO already?
if so how does the TMO get involved in an on field decsion anyway? Without recourse to video replays ?

"Jeff - I'm in the video truck in the car park. I can't see anything on the pitch at all. I am unable to assist in an on field decision"

 

[DocP]

No, team of 4 is Ref, 2 x AR and a 4th official (in charge of subs etc, he is the emergency back up as well)

 

[didds]

No, team of 4 is Ref, 2 x AR and a 4th official (in charge of subs etc, he is the emergency back up as well)

cheers - but then given he is likely to be 50m+ away what real input is he likely to provide ?
"Jeff - I'm near the technical areas, 75m away from where the pile up near the line occurred out towards the corner flag on the opposite side of the ground from me. I can't see anything on the pitch at all. I am unable to assist in an on field decision"