Is it In/Out of the 22

[Donal1988]

If there is a ruck/scrum in which the hindmost foot is touching the 22m is that ruck/scrum in the 22m.

If it is kicked out will it lead to gain in ground.

Take a scrum where the mark is outside the 22 but number 8s feet is in the 22. Has the ball been brought back in or is the scrum in the 22?

 

[TheBFG]

Make sure the scrum is in or outside the 22, don't make it difficult for yourself, nobody will notice a meter or two either way to make sure it's in or out of the 22 :wink:

As for the Ruck i alway look as to where the ball is passed from i.e. if the SH is in the 22 when he passes that's in (gain in ground)

 

[beckett50]

Donal. If the mark is outside then - in your example the ball would have been taken back in and therefore no gain in ground.

To save any blushes you could always move the mark to just inside. (Assuming the offence is just outside!)

 

[Dixie]

To save any blushes you could always move the mark to just inside. (Assuming the offence is just outside!)

Or, if you prefer not to give improper assistance to one side vis a vis the other, simply call "we are OUTSIDE the 22", while looking directly at the defending #10.

 

[Donal1988]

Guys I get what your saying about managing it.

However the question is do we think its outside or inside and why.

If I catch a ball just outside the 22 but have a foot on the line, I am considered to be in the 22.
If the scrumhalf puts the ball in outside the 22, but the hindmost feet are inside the 22 is there a gain in ground?

 

[crossref]

I think it's where the mark is that matters.

If the mark is close to the 22, I will state -- inside or outside -- so that everyone knows

I will always make the mark a 1 metre from line, so the mark is clear

 

[Dixie]

Donal, the mark is outside the 22. From there, the ball somehow arrived in the 22. In the absence of magic, it was either put there by the attackers or the defenders. If the defenders put the ball into the scrum outside the 22, their opponents never touched it and it ends up inside the 22, how can you avoid the conclusion that the defenders put it there?

 

[Taff]

Guys I get what your saying about managing it. However the question is do we think its outside or inside and why.

I see your logic, but I was told to go by the mark - in the case of a scrum the mark is smack in the middle of the scrum so in your example it would be outside the 22. With a ruck, if the back foot of the ruck and the ball is on the 22m line - the 22m line is part of the 22, so it hasn't been taken back in - ie gain in ground allowed.

... If the scrumhalf puts the ball in outside the 22, but the hindmost feet are inside the 22 is there a gain in ground?

I would say no gain in ground. The mark is outside the 22 so the balls been taken back in.

 

[Phil E]

- in the case of a scrum the mark is smack in the middle of the scrum

Advice I had from the RFU Refereeing Department is that the mark from a scrum should be at the #8's feet.

Which I suppose could be interpreted as in the middle, and then in a line back to the first practical place you could take it from.

 

[Taff]

Advice I had from the RFU Refereeing Department is that the mark from a scrum should be at the #8's feet.

Well that's really thrown me. :biggrin: I was going by the "mark" mentioned in 20.1

20.1(f) Front rows coming together. First, the referee marks with a foot the place where the scrum is to be formed.

20.1(j) Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half’s hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.

 

[didds]

With a ruck, if the back foot of the ruck and the ball is on the 22m line - the 22m line is part of the 22, so it hasn't been taken back in - ie gain in ground allowed.

For clarification

1) player tackled just outside the 22, presents ball just outside 22m, ruck forms, last foot behind 22m. GiG?
2) player tackled just outside the 22, presents ball just inside 22m, ruck forms, last foot behind 22m. GiG?

didds

 

[Dixie]

Advice I had from the RFU Refereeing Department is that the mark from a scrum should be at the #8's feet.

Which I suppose could be interpreted as in the middle, and then in a line back to the first practical place you could take it from.

Too weird for words. Are you sure this wasn't in relation to the mark for a PK/FK following a scrum offence? I'd be more comfortable with that being so than that the mark for a scrum is at #8's feet. Defensive knock-on on the 5m line. Attacking #8 places his Size 12's on the line, and his colleagues form up in front of him. SH puts the ball in 3m from the goal line - I don't think so!!!!

For clarification

1) player tackled just outside the 22, presents ball just outside 22m, ruck forms, last foot behind 22m. GiG?
2) player tackled just outside the 22, presents ball just inside 22m, ruck forms, last foot behind 22m. GiG?

More complex - the existence of a ruck "resets" the ability for GiG, whereas the existence of a scrum does not. But in my view, this ruck should occur after the ball was taken in, and not be the means by which it was taken in. But I'd accept any consistent call in these circumstances.

 

[The Fat]

If there is a ruck/scrum in which the hindmost foot is touching the 22m is that ruck/scrum in the 22m.

If it is kicked out will it lead to gain in ground.

Take a scrum where the mark is outside the 22 but number 8s feet is in the 22. Has the ball been brought back in or is the scrum in the 22?

In the scrum scenario, if the mark for the scrum is outside the 22 the ref should make that clear to the defending team prior to setting the scrum. "We are outside the 22 gents". If the ball is won by the defenders, picked up inside the 22 and kicked directly to touch, there is NO gain in ground.

As for the ruck scenario, good luck with that one. I think OB is the only one to have a real crack at answering my posts #1 & #15 of this other similar thread http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?13650-Inside-or-Outside/page2

 

[Phil E]

Are you sure this wasn't in relation to the mark for a PK/FK following a scrum offence?

Yes it was. I assumed that was obvious.

Perhaps it was to 'most' people :shrug:

 

[Rushforth]

I'm of the opinion that at the set piece there is time to tell (first catching defending fly-half's eyes) "This counts as...", but that if a team is trying to run it out of their 22 then they need to be aware that they need to be very careful if taking it back in.

 

[Jenko]

OK. Scrum 1 m outside the 22. Put in attacking team. Scrum Half throws in crooked. Free Kick to Defending team at feet of Number 8 inside 22. Can they now kick for touch and gain in ground?

 

[didds]

fk mark is within the 22 so yes.

didds

 

[crossref]

OK. Scrum 1 m outside the 22. Put in attacking team. Scrum Half throws in crooked. Free Kick to Defending team at feet of Number 8 inside 22. Can they now kick for touch and gain in ground?

hmm -- isn't the mark for the FK the same as the mark for the scrum -- ie outside the 22. The FK is generally taken from behind the #8, because that's as close to the mark as a tram in a hurry can get-- but the mark is in the middle. At least that's what I always thought

 

[The Fat]

hmm -- isn't the mark for the FK the same as the mark for the scrum -- ie outside the 22. The FK is generally taken from behind the #8, because that's as close to the mark as a tram in a hurry can get-- but the mark is in the middle. At least that's what I always thought

That was my understanding as well

 

[Taff]

hmm -- isn't the mark for the FK the same as the mark for the scrum -- ie outside the 22. The FK is generally taken from behind the #8, because that's as close to the mark as a tram in a hurry can get-- but the mark is in the middle. At least that's what I always thought

That was my understanding as well

+2. That's how I understood it. A PK or FK must be taken "at the mark or behind the mark on a line through it" which as Crossref says, would explain the reference to the No8s feet, but the original mark would still be in the middle of the scrum surely, ie outside the 22.