Staffs_Ref
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Disagreeing with you is not the same as being aggressive. I am sure this is called "RugbyRefs.com" and not "crossref.com"
[Law] Is it material?
- Thread starter thepercy
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Disagreeing with you is not the same as being aggressive. I am sure this is called "RugbyRefs.com" and not "crossref.com"
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I don't buy the argument that offside players 20m away are always immaterial. Their offside position may well be affecting the decision making process of the team in possession. What if the ruck is 5m from the sideline. On the openside, opposing players are standing offside and the referee is not warning them back. The SH might consider having to go the blindside when he doesn't really want to, in fact the opposition may be trying to make him do just that!
Materiality isn't just about what is happening now, it can also be about what is happening next.
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...and you have to keep poking the dog with a stick don't you?
Can you both cut it out and moderate your language (actual or implied) please?
MOD
Back on the subject, I defy anyone here to identify if someone is 9m or 10 away on a pitch if not near any convenient markings. That's why the 10m is always going to be arbitrary.
We are discussing a situation where the defenders have lined up some distance less than 10m, where it IS obvious to everyone that it's less than 10m, but it's not very much less so the question of materiality arises. If you don't think 9m cuts it, lets say they are 8.5m and then discuss.
Basically they are at the margin where it's clearly NOT 10m, but it's probably not material, especially if they are kicking for touch
Not only that, but you're definitely going to get the crowd or coaches on your back and that's a sure way to lose the players' respect, particularly at youth level.
If everyone watching is thinking "WTF is he doing?!" you're not doing yourself any favours.
Pegleg
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I must come and watch one of your matches. i think it would be very entertaining to see you try to "manage" every player in every instance of a non-material transgression!
... Meanwhile, back in the real world ...
It's worked for over 350 games. Quite easy to do. Perhaps it is a skill that you need to practice?
Pegleg
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Well of course we cant manage offences that are missed, such is life! If a cheat gets away unseen good luck to him. We try to minimise those events as far as humanly possible.
I'm certainly not a "high level referee", but I do try to adopt the principles of my betters. It seems worthwhile to try and learn from your betters. I might, just might, be as good as I can be then.
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Pegleg
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Sorry I'm not going to back away for people when they are rude. If they start it I'll finish it. The difference is I'll not put a daft smiley on the post.
Staffs_Ref
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I think you will find that you started that back in post #47.
Phil E has asked that we call a halt to our difference in views on this. I have been doing just that, but you don't seem to want to let it go.
For the sake of the other site users, if you still have an issue with me, please put it on a private message.
I will not make any further posts on this particular thread.
Phi E, my apologies - and apologies also if anyone other users have taken offence.
I find that inadvisable as it simply ramps things up, and you often find both protagonists claiming "he started it". Phil E is right.
yes, but I think you are taking 9m too literally. Your answer is that you wouldn't be able to tell if they were 9m or 10m
fair enough,
so what if it was just enough so that you can tell that they aren't the full 10m ?
then what
1) do you think it's material, if the kick seems likely to be headed for touch ?
2) what if it's a pattern: if they line up too close for every kick, and ignore the AR who every kick tells them to move back ? do you manage it? ATP? or does it not matter.
Lee Lifeson-Peart
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Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Other Man: I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You did not!
O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
O: Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
(pause)
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
(pause)
M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes just now!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!
O: No you haven't!
M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
M: I've had enough of this!
O: No you haven't.
M: Oh shut up!
(Man leaves the office)
Other Man: I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't!
Other Man: Yes I have.
M: When?
O: Just now.
M: No you didn't!
O: Yes I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I did!
M: You didn't!
O: I'm telling you, I did!
M: You did not!
O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.
O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.
O: Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not!
O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
(pause)
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
(pause)
M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
(pause)
M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes just now!!
O: I'm afraid it was.
M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....
O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.
M: WHAT??
O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!
O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!
M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.
O: Thank you.
M: (clears throat) Well...
O: Well WHAT?
M: That was never five minutes just now.
O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Well I just paid!
O: No you didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I DID!!!
O: YOU didn't!
M: I don't want to argue about it!
O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!
M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!
O: No you haven't!
M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.
O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.
M: I've had enough of this!
O: No you haven't.
M: Oh shut up!
(Man leaves the office)
Rich_NL
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ChrisR
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Where do I find the room for "being hit on the head" lessons?