[Law] Is it material?

[thepercy]

Situation: Girls U19 Cup Semi-final with ARs. PK to White 35m out, AR is managing Black players to get back 10m, they are maybe 9m back, White kick for touch, over the offending players heads, misses touch, Black fullback picks up the ball and runs 95m for a try. After the match the AR, who is also a referee coach, asks why I did not give the PK, I didn't think it was material, he did.

 

[didds]

why did he think it was?

didds

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Situation: Girls U19 Cup Semi-final with ARs. PK to White 35m out, AR is managing Black players to get back 10m, they are maybe 9m back, White kick for touch, over the offending players heads, misses touch, Black fullback picks up the ball and runs 95m for a try. After the match the AR, who is also a referee coach, asks why I did not give the PK, I didn't think it was material, he did.

From how you describe the situation I think that you called it right. Nothing there to penalise.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Let's just say that I'm glad it was you reffing, and not the AR.

 

[Blackberry]

You got it right, was the "only 9 metre back" offence material to what happened next? I reckon...no.

 

[Christy]

Hi thepercy.
Can i take it that the ar , was not coach from team playing.
He was in fact a neutral ref.
My only question would be is,,, was there any obvious obstruction to allow full back advance with ball infront of her own players .
Also hope you enjoyed the sprint to try line also .

I watched a hurling match last week
Where ref spent 99% of match standing in middle of field ( pitches are also about 30 meters longer than rugby pitches also ).
At half time he came and sat be side my self & did some stretches ( yawns ) whilst sitting down.

 

[pwhaling]

Percy, tell thr lazy AR if he did his job properly we wouldn't be having this chat. And he's wrong.

 

[Pegleg]

From the scenario, you were right and he was wrong.

 

[thepercy]

It was a referee coach, not team coach, and a newly minted performance reviewer and former society chairman. I found his post-game comments odd.

 

[SimonSmith]

It isn't only cream that floats to the top

 

[Camquin]

It sounds like it was not material - as it was a kick for touch over their heads.

But if the players had been continually overstepping the offside line and if the AR had brought it to your attention that they were not obeying his/her instructions to take a step when asked and you had had words with the captain that it was not to happen again - then it might come to a time to make a point.

 

[crossref]

It sounds like it was not material - as it was a kick for touch over their heads.

But if the players had been continually overstepping the offside line and if the AR had brought it to your attention that they were not obeying his/her instructions to take a step when asked and you had had words with the captain that it was not to happen again - then it might come to a time to make a point.

I agree - but even then I think the time to make the point is just before the PK is taken and the point would be made by advancing it 10m.

 

[didds]

It sounds like it was not material - as it was a kick for touch over their heads.

But if the players had been continually overstepping the offside line and if the AR had brought it to your attention that they were not obeying his/her instructions to take a step when asked and you had had words with the captain that it was not to happen again - then it might come to a time to make a point.

That still wouldn;t make the < 10m material. It would be persistent offending that was material.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

Yes, the normal "ATP" process would (should) be followed.

 

[Staffs_Ref]

I agree - but even then I think the time to make the point is just before the PK is taken and the point would be made by advancing it 10m.

But there is no requirement in law for the team to be penalised if it is not material:

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]21.7 (c)
Kick taken quickly. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.[/FONT]

 

[crossref]

But there is no requirement in law for the team to be penalised if it is not material:

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]21.7 (c)
Kick taken quickly. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.[/FONT]

the kick wasn't being taken quickly, that doesn't apply.
what applies is

[LAWS]21.7 What the opposing team must do at a penalty kick
(a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark..[/LAWS]

If this was a one-off, and the kick is to touch, it's not material (so just have a word - 10m next time please), but if it was persistent and you'd already had that word, then sanction with 10m

 

[Staffs_Ref]

it's not material

Exactly! It is NOT material. It has no bearing on the match. The team in possession has already decided that it is going to try to kick to touch ... no need to do a thing.

 

[crossref]

Exactly! It is NOT material. It has no bearing on the match. The team in possession has already decided that it is going to try to kick to touch ... no need to do a thing.

so if they were persistently standing 9m away, at every single PK - you'd just let them?

I wouldn't, I'd ask, then tell, then penalise them not to.

 

[rugbyslave]

This is the same as players slightly offside on the opposite side of ruck or maul, they are so far away from the action they have no influence on the game which is 20m away, yet the crowd or coach will shout offsides... to be a referee you have to be deaf and thick skinned and hold your tongue, once you get into and argument with a coach or spectator over laws you are in trouble.

 

[Phil E]

I'm not sure I could tell the difference between someone standing 9m away and someone standing 10m away, without the help of some nearby lines (such as half way and the 10).