Judiciary time...

[Chickref]

I get to visit the judiciary tonight about the player I set off on Sunday. There's a whole lot of awkward between me and this player (turns out I used to date his brother - before I was a ref.) But the whole judiciary thing comprises of so many of the things I hate most.

- Formal clothing
- People all staring at me
- Feeling like I am, in fact, Doing It Wrong
- Actual grown-ups with actual powers
- Ironing (see: formal clothing)

In fact, it fills me with the same kind of mute dread a visit to the Dean used to. (Constant trouble? Me? Never...)

Anyone want to make me feel better by discussing the times they've had to give evidence to the boss-men?

 

[ckuxmann]

Never had to deal with one , then again I've only given out 4 total Red Cards in my around two years.

 

[Casey Bee]

I get to visit the judiciary tonight about the player I set off on Sunday. There's a whole lot of awkward between me and this player (turns out I used to date his brother - before I was a ref.) But the whole judiciary thing comprises of so many of the things I hate most.

- Formal clothing
- People all staring at me
- Feeling like I am, in fact, Doing It Wrong
- Actual grown-ups with actual powers
- Ironing (see: formal clothing)

In fact, it fills me with the same kind of mute dread a visit to the Dean used to. (Constant trouble? Me? Never...)

Anyone want to make me feel better by discussing the times they've had to give evidence to the boss-men?

I don't understand what you are saying re 'a whole lot of awkward'. You could be married to the guy. Deal with what happened in the game you officiated in and the reasons you made him walk in that game. Other factors should not come in to it. OK, you have to 'dress up' and tow the line due to officialdom. We all do. You should get used to that, it's life. From reading your other posts you seem to have an issue with 'officials'. Deal with it, it's life, it's not cos you are a girl. Frankly, you seem to want to employ the 'I'm a feeble girl' card too readily if it suits. Stop fighting things as 'a girl' and simply adopt a policy of what you say is a valid point. However, if you want to 'kick against the system' by not putting a tie on when it's expected, you make a rod for your own back. I support equality, however there are times when the demands of equality actually undermine the argument. Don't argue because you are female, argue because your viewpoint is right.

 

[Robert Burns]

I think that means just address them as the referee, nothing else matters, and nothing else should come into it.

Make sure you take a copy of your report with you, and make sure you know and understand all the events in your head so you can describe them if/when asked.

Lastly, if possible, ask if you can have a member of your committee support you. They know the system and can be more help than us on a website.

 

[DrSTU]

I get to visit the judiciary tonight about the player I set off on Sunday. There's a whole lot of awkward between me and this player (turns out I used to date his brother - before I was a ref.) But the whole judiciary thing comprises of so many of the things I hate most.

- Formal clothing
- People all staring at me
- Feeling like I am, in fact, Doing It Wrong
- Actual grown-ups with actual powers
- Ironing (see: formal clothing)

In fact, it fills me with the same kind of mute dread a visit to the Dean used to. (Constant trouble? Me? Never...)

Anyone want to make me feel better by discussing the times they've had to give evidence to the boss-men?

Learn one thing and one thing well. Whenever anyone asks a question, you pause, stop and answer with the simplest explanation that is possible. From there, if more information is needed you can expand further and so on but never jump into the deep end with an answer.

Also, as CB said, most people won't give a toss that you're a woman so just treat it like any normal situation.

 

[Chickref]

The awkward thing is just a reason I'd have much rather never have seen this particular player again.

I dont think the issue is puely being a girl - I'll cop to being feeble around officialdom and doubly feeble if in a room where I am the centre of attention but I dont think this is purely the reserve of girls - I know plenty of boys who loathe speaking to those in power, especially in public.

Though I do think that my rather acute anxiety does stem from being a female - after all, it is constantly drilled into girls that men are rational and logical, and women are emotional, and prone to just being wrong in their judgements. I know what I remember, but what If I'm wrong? Memory is a poor tool, and I've had four days of exam stress in between.
I've had a lifetime of being told not to trust my judgements, because theyre wrong. It's hard to overcome that.

I asked for other stories to reassure me Im not the only one who finds such situations stressful, cheers for pointing out only silly little girls don't just deal with it.

 

[TigerCraig]

Agree with Dr Stu

I've never had to front a judiciary as a ref, but have chaired one (albeit in cricket), and appeared as a players advocate.

They aren't out to crucify either you or the player. Just answer questions simply and directly. Don't offer colour or emotion (ie "I saw red 6 strike blue 4 with a clenched fist to the head", not "Jones lost control and belted him wildly").

If the board want clarification they will ask for it. If the player or their advocate question your report or evidence don't take it emotionally - that's their right.

In the case where I was advocate, I actually got the player off though he was guilty as sin - because the guy who made the report got flustered and contradicted himself

 

[Chickref]

It was just as awful as I thought it was going to be. The player pretty much admitted he did it, so then I had to say whether I thought the suspension was fair and whether there was anything I would have done and was it because I was having a rubbish game?

And I stood up and mumbled what essentially amounted to "I don't think he's a mean and horrible person but he did kick that guy and the default two weeks is probably the best outcome if the panel think it is can I please sit down now?"

At one point I was told to "speak up!" which just made it worse.

Player ended up with one week suspension. I didn't care, I just wanted to get away.

 

[sgoat]

It was just as awful as I thought it was going to be. The player pretty much admitted he did it, so then I had to say whether I thought the suspension was fair and whether there was anything I would have done and was it because I was having a rubbish game?

And I stood up and mumbled what essentially amounted to "I don't think he's a mean and horrible person but he did kick that guy and the default two weeks is probably the best outcome if the panel think it is can I please sit down now?"

At one point I was told to "speak up!" which just made it worse.

Player ended up with one week suspension. I didn't care, I just wanted to get away.

Judging by your description here in England the disciplinary works a bit differently. The referee is solely there are a witness and reports what they saw and what they did.
We would not expect to get asked our opinion on what the player should get in terms of sanction.

Following on from what Casey Bee said, and perhaps part of what he was saying is it seems from your posts to date that part of your problem is a lack of self-confidence. Now where that comes from only you will know, and we don't necessarily need to know. I don't know what to recommend to help you with this, but to be a good referee this is is on area I think you should work on. It will help you both on and off the pitch with your dealings with players, coaches, assessors and committee.

 

[Dixie]

I'll cop to being feeble around officialdom and doubly feeble if in a room where I am the centre of attention but I dont think this is purely the reserve of girls - I know plenty of boys who loathe speaking to those in power, especially in public.

I've sat in on a fair number of these as an observer representative of the Society, and have attended a few as a carding referee.

The meetings are informal - the player is probably equally stressed, if not more so as he's the one facing the charge and the consequences. The first point for you to note is that your input has already largely been provided in the written report. Know it thoroughly, and be clear in your mind exactly what happened. You say you know what you rememebr, but what if you're wrong? Do not even admit that as a possibility. If you have false memories, you'll never know. Just keep saying what the memory was and let the judiciary decide whether yours or the player's is the incorrect one.

Did the player actually do what you sent him off for? That's what the judiciary is there to determine. If you are not sure, you should have admitted that in the report. If you are sure, say why you are sure, don't deviate from the simple facts, and don't speculate on anything that's not a fact. But I'd be surprised if you faced any questions at all - or if you do, they'll be to calrify any uncertainty in your report. Stick to the facts of what you saw. Was it a punhc? Right handed or left? To the head or the body? Left side or right side? Did the oppo player fall to the ground?

If they find he DID do it, then they may take mitigating factors into account in determining sentence. If you missed the three puches leading up to the carded player's punch, you can't comment on that other than to say you saw no other punches. If he claims retaliation, then the judiciary will sort that out - not your issue.

Relax - it'll be no big and the officials are on your side. Let us know how it pans out.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I have been a referee witness, Society observer and CB Panel member for discplinary. Plus been a witness at an RFU appeal (now that is very formal). Yes it can be stressful, but so are lots of things in life both at home and at work - you have to learn to deal with it.

What you faced sounds very different way to run the process - we never see the referee's overall match performance as a defence, only the specifics of the dismissla offence.

ChickRef you create concerns, issues, worries in your own mind that just don't exist. Be positive, not negative. He was found guilty, so your decision to dismiss was proved. Yoiu made the right call, good job done on the pitch.

Nothing to do with you being female, but it is an experience / maturity thing, and I sense an underlying trend of you thinking you are anti-establishment (I was too at your age, and that was in the days of serious public demos, disorder and bucking the system).

You were a witness - plain & simple.

Why on earth did you mumble and as for being asked to speak up - you have to develop more self-confidence. You were being asked for your opinion, as a sign of respect by the Panel. Be in control, be confident, be clear and communicate (not just in reffing but in life generally it is crucial).

 

[Taff]

... Why on earth did you mumble and as for being asked to speak up - you have to develop more self-confidence. You were being asked for your opinion, as a sign of respect by the Panel. Be in control, be confident, be clear and communicate (not just in reffing but in life generally it is crucial).

I seem to remember that Chickref is 18 or 19 - be honest what were you like at 18 or 19? I know what I was like, and confidence at that age can be an issue. Her confidence will grow with age and experience.

After I left school a lot of people intimidated me. These days very few intimidate me, but I'm pretty sure most others would say the same.

Chickref, you must have more confidence than others your age - otherwise you wouldn't have even thought about becoming a referee. Can it be improved? I'm sure it could, but that will come so you're not alone in that respect.

 

[TheBFG]

and have attended a few as a carding referee.

I find that hrad to believe:wink:

Chickref, this won't be the last of these, get used to them. That's easy for me to say, but to be honest i still feel a little uneasy when at them.

The problem i have is that the guy i sent off is sat next to me and i feel a little awakward and at 6'4" and the wrong side of 130KGS i know i shouldn't so can only imagine how you must have felt

Fact is, i had 4 of these before Xmas this year, by the 4th one i had it sussed, walked in, didn't look at the guy, let the pannel do the talking, confirm my report was correct, confirmed that i had nothing to add, listen to the excuses the player came up with, waited to be asked if i agreed with his excuse (which in most cases i didn't), just say that it happen as i've explained in my report. Job done, had a pint (thanks to Somerset) and went home, simples!

You'll get used to it, as all have said, you are not on trial, the palyer is.

 

[Mickman]

Chickref, you should just remember, you had already done the "hard part" - showing the :norc: rather than the :noyc:, or even managing it/ turning a blind eye!!

Before I had given my first :noyc: I used to think about what I would do on first occasioon that caled for :noyc: let alone a :norc: (still haven't yet), what I would say, how I would handle it, BUT it just ended up being a matter of fact situ (I remembered to take a breath), explained to the player, he punched he earned it :noyc:, see you in 10...

BFG hit the nail on the head: -

you are not on trial, the palyer is.

AND

CONGRATULATIONS :bday: having already given a :norc: and been infront of a judiciary you're already more experienced than some of us on here. What else more is there to experience apart from bigger occasion games and everything that goes with that . How much more in front of people will you be then......?

 

[Simon Thomas]

be honest what were you like at 18 or 19?

I was a self-confident high achiever at 18/19 to be perfectly honest, as were my two daughters and their circles of friends.

 

[Taff]

I was a self-confident high achiever at 18/19 to be perfectly honest, as were my two daughters and their circles of friends.

Glad to hear it ST - but you're probably the exception and not the rule. :wink:

Confidence in social circles etc is one thing; having the confidence to control 30 men and possibly attend a hearing requires a step up. I'd like to think I'd be ok at it, but until I attend a Disciplinary Hearing I suppose I won't know for sure.

 

[Davet]

Chickref, which numbskulls have told you women are less rational and more emotional than men? Next time someone says that, just laugh at them and say - "How quaint! Are you really stupid, or just trying out the part of a gender stereotype?"

At least say it quietly to yourself, if you feel that actual vocalisation may not be helpful...

You sent the guy off, you know why you did so. You put in a detailed report explaing that. At a hearing simply confirm what was in your report, don't embellish. And don't offer an opinion on the sentence or his character. The bit about words to the effect of "I'm sure he's not a nasty person" are irrelevant unless you are his mother.

Them asking you weher you feel suspension is fair is somewhat odd, and personally I'd have said "Not my call, sir. That's surely what your job is to determine." If they don't like that then what are they going to do about it? But then again I'm an arsey sod who, unlike Simon Thomas (by implication) is still generally anti-establishment.

But I think I'd like to see you develop a bit of an attitude, not overly stroppy, and argumentative for it's own sake, but with a clear notion of your own worth, which seems considerable, and a clear idea of what you expect from others, and willing to point out to them, politely, when they fail to reach those expectations.

As the advert says "you're worth it!", and frankly you are undoubtedly worth far more than a stick of lippy.

You want to be the 1st female Super Rugby Ref - so you'd better learn to prod buttock, if not actually kick arse.

 

[Dickie E]

It was just as awful as I thought it was going to be. The player pretty much admitted he did it, so then I had to say whether I thought the suspension was fair and whether there was anything I would have done and was it because I was having a rubbish game?

And I stood up and mumbled what essentially amounted to "I don't think he's a mean and horrible person but he did kick that guy and the default two weeks is probably the best outcome if the panel think it is can I please sit down now?"

At one point I was told to "speak up!" which just made it worse.

Player ended up with one week suspension. I didn't care, I just wanted to get away.

A good experience on your path to S15 territory.

 

[4eyesbetter]

Chickref, which numbskulls have told you women are less rational and more emotional than men? Next time someone says that, just laugh at them and say - "How quaint! Are you really stupid, or just trying out the part of a gender stereotype?"

I think this is more likely to be a societal thing than anything that might have said directly. There's more ways than one to send messages out without saying it directly...

 

[Dixie]

I think this is more likely to be a societal thing than anything that might have said directly. There's more ways than one to send messages out without saying it directly...

:Looser: