Juggling ball now NOT in possession

[Phil E]

So no change in the law, just one ref (team) seeing it slightly different from some other ref's.

Amazing!

 

[didds]

There's a thing

 

[crossref]

so if I was in the WR laws committee I'd propose a tweak to the definition so that it said -

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or, having touched the ball, are attempting to bring it under control.

to make it clearer that that you are only 'in possession' and liable to being tackled, once you have touched it

 

[Harry]

so if I was in the WR laws committee I'd propose a tweak to the definition so that it said -



to make it clearer that that you are only 'in possession' and liable to being tackled, once you have touched it

Would played be a better word than touched ?

 

[didds]

well... "played" is a verb that is oft discussed here with its multiple connotations!

 

[didds]

Or maybe

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or, having DELIBERATELY touched the ball, are attempting to bring it under control.

 

[crossref]

it's not easy this law drafting mullarkey

 

[Decorily]

So no change in the law, just one ref (team) seeing it slightly different from some other ref's.

Amazing!

How did this ref see it differently?

 

[crossref]

Played is better than touched

Intentionally is the word used in the Laws rather than deliberately

 

[didds]

well - back we go to what does "played" mean.
CF
discussions about the ball ending up in-goal having ricocheted off a defender's leg from a attacking grubber.
discussions about kicks hitting oppo players in the back attempting evasive action etc.
We collectively don't come to agreements about what they effectively mean. Whichever terminology is used it needs to be quite clear whether its regarding intentional / deliberate actions of accidental ones

 

[crossref]

Played:

The ball is played when it is intentionally touched by a player.

which obviously includes a charge down, a kick and trying to catch it

 

[didds]

so... red attacking grubber kick in the field of play which glances and deflects off a leg of blue (defender) less than a metre in front of kicker, then runs in goal and goes dead.

universal result?

 

[crossref]

so... red attacking grubber kick in the field of play which glances and deflects off a leg of blue (defender) less than a metre in front of kicker, then runs in goal and goes dead.

universal result?

Great question
The ball just happened to hit Blue?

Then the last person the play the ball was Red
So blue options of scrum or 22

If blue stuck his foot out and played the ball then 5m scrum red

 

[didds]

Great question
The ball just happened to hit Blue?

Then the last person the play the ball was Red
So blue options of scrum or 22

indeed.
And what do you think will be awarded across ... oooo... 100 games where that happens?
Cos I suspect that's at least 90 x 5m scrums to red. If not 100 - 99 if you are the ref in one of them of course

 

[Locke]

I’m not sure if I’m following this conversation correctly.

If red kicks an attacking grubber, the ball accidentally deflects off blue player’s leg (and blue is in the field of play, not in-goal) and then the ball goes dead beyond the dead ball line or touch in goal, it’s a 5m scrum to red every time. It isn’t relevant if blue’s contact with the ball was intentional or not.

For same scenario, except blue player is standing in-goal when the ball hits his leg, then the restart is a goal line drop out to blue.

 

[didds]

To confirm - unintentional deflection in the field of play.

so... red attacking grubber kick in the field of play which glances and deflects off a leg of blue (defender) less than a metre in front of kicker, then runs in goal and goes dead.

Great question
The ball just happened to hit Blue?

Then the last person the play the ball was Red
So blue options of scrum or 22

If red kicks an attacking grubber, the ball accidentally deflects off blue player’s leg (and blue is in the field of play, not in-goal) and then the ball goes dead beyond the dead ball line or touch in goal, it’s a 5m scrum to red every time. It isn’t relevant if blue’s contact with the ball was intentional or not.

The prosecution rests its case.

I do think Locke is correct here though cos a quick serach of the laws suggests

Laws of the Game | World Rugby Laws

Individual Laws of the game of rugby union.

www.world.rugby

"Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as follows

Infringement / stoppage	Location of scrum	Who throws in

The ball is taken into in-goal by the defending team and made dead.

In the scrum zone at the point closest to where the ball was made dead.

The attacking team.

that isn't about "played" - thats about "taken in" (yet the attacking side can do both!) . Yet there is sufficient ambiguity and confusion over this area that CR - a very experienced ref - considers that to be so. (And I've learned something now!)

As it is - there is no definition for "taken in" ....

Law definitions | World Rugby Laws

Alphabetical Law definitions for the game of rugby union.

www.world.rugby

And whatever it all is supposed to mean... I stand by 90+ out of 100 occurrences will end up with a 5m attacking scrum.

Good 'ere innit!

 

[crossref]

For clarity, I think the expected decision is a 5m scrum, and that is absolutely what I would give

(But Law does seem to say that some intention is required..unlike the laws on touch that make it completely clear that if the ball were to hit red on the back of the head and go onto touch it's a blue throw in )

Another place where the laws could be better

 

[didds]

Another place where the laws could be better

and i totally agree there CR.

 

[Dickie E]

so... red attacking grubber kick in the field of play which glances and deflects off a leg of blue (defender) less than a metre in front of kicker, then runs in goal and goes dead.

universal result?

This is where I thought you were going.
Blue defender sticks leg out and ball glances off it. Was he attempting to bring ball under control so liable to be tackled?

 

[didds]

This is where I thought you were going.
Blue defender sticks leg out and ball glances off it. Was he attempting to bring ball under control so liable to be tackled?

we have a winner