[Law] Jumping or Diving Clarification required

[Ciaran Trainor]

Thinking about the debate the Johnny May try has created I think world rugby need to look at this and clarify what constitutes a fair competition.

If Johnny May had caught the Italian defender with his knee, he would have been penalised and possibly yellow or red carded for dangerous play.

If the Italian defender had caught him as he jumped and tackled him into touch it would probably be a penalty try and yellow card.

I know the laws can’t cover every scenario but some clarification would help.

For me now, any attacker who thinks they may be caught by covering defence as they go for the line, all they have to do, is jump in the air and they will be rewarded, that has to be wrong.
Not only are they endangering themselves but also defenders and just because a collision didn’t occur it can’t be right to ignore it.

On a wet day if an attacker tries a 5m Slide they have deliberately gone off their feet in open play, would it be reasonable for a defender to go off their feet to try to block the slide?

The game has always been about fair competition. (obviousy ignoring 1st class scrums ? )

I’ve seen players red carded for throwing a haymaker that just missed and nobody argued with that decision.

These things should not be outcome based.

 

[Lex Hipkins]

Thinking about the debate the Johnny May try has created I think world rugby need to look at this and clarify what constitutes a fair competition.

If Johnny May had caught the Italian defender with his knee, he would have been penalised and possibly yellow or red carded for dangerous play.

If the Italian defender had caught him as he jumped and tackled him into touch it would probably be a penalty try and yellow card.

I know the laws can’t cover every scenario but some clarification would help.

For me now, any attacker who thinks they may be caught by covering defence as they go for the line, all they have to do, is jump in the air and they will be rewarded, that has to be wrong.
Not only are they endangering themselves but also defenders and just because a collision didn’t occur it can’t be right to ignore it.

On a wet day if an attacker tries a 5m Slide they have deliberately gone off their feet in open play, would it be reasonable for a defender to go off their feet to try to block the slide?

The game has always been about fair competition. (obviousy ignoring 1st class scrums �� )

I’ve seen players red carded for throwing a haymaker that just missed and nobody argued with that decision.

These things should not be outcome based.

I disagree that the second possibility would have occurred. If the Italian play had successfully tackled him into touch when he had jumped (or dived - semantics) then in my opinion that would have been ball in touch and play on. Whereas if May had clipped the tackler with a trailing leg then I agree that would have been a penalty to Italy. The risk is therefore all with the ball carrier. As it happens this time the risk paid off but could have gone against England. The Italian player trying to make the tackle had nothing to lose.

 

[Balones]

If you play the incident in slo-mo it does look as if one of JM’s boots did ‘clip’ the tacklers head.

 

[crossref]

If you play the incident in slo-mo it does look as if one of JM’s boots did ‘clip’ the tacklers head.

i thought that - but strangely the conversation between the TMO and ref didn't even mention this possibility. They seemed totally focussed on touch, never discussed if the dive was OK or not, never discussed the possibility of head contact

 

[Thisone]

Is Nigel Owen's still reffing professionally in the Pro 14?

If so surely he needs to pipe down with his implied criticism of the officials over the last few weeks.

He's piling in on twitter about the May try and is having a pop in the Daily Mail https://www.rugbydump.com/news/nigel-owens-calls-out-owen-farrell-over-referee-back-chat/ about Farrell's back chat and (gasp) how much better he was than the match official on the day.

Surely he needs to retire quickly if he wants to be a talking head?

 

[crossref]

https://youtu.be/L3s796b43hA

Here it is .. does the boot clip the head ?
TMO and ref don't even consider it

 

[didds]

Or rather than clip the tackler's head with the boot, does the tackler just headbutt his boot? Seeing as May was already well past the point of tackle by that time?

purely devils advocate/alternative view.

I think its an area of the game that cannot be legislated for really. Once you start describing a jump for the line as illegal (for instance) you now have to wonder what happens with regards kick passes caught with a jump and that subsequantly lands in goal for a try? Or a hurdled jump to evade a prone body?

and when does a jump become a dive? Or do we also outlaw dives? So when does a dive become a loss of footing in the wet?

I think its just easier to leave refs with the dangerous play law and let them make a sensible decsion based on that. We can't legislate for everything.

didds

 

[OB..]

The basic actions of hurdling a tackler and diving for the line are different. The former raises a distinct likelihood of boot meeting head when they are travelling in different directions. The latter does not.

 

[Balones]

It would have been interesting to know what the decision would have been if the ‘tackler’ had not got up so quickly or had had blood drawn. Generally we don’t want outcome decisions being made so we could do with some degree of explanation from WR so as to provide guidance even if it does come down to a referee decision/interpretation as to what is dangerous play. What we need is a word from WR outlining what they consider a dive rather than a jump and dive to avoid a tackle. In this incident the ref probably felt he had no options but to consider it as a dive because of no precedence. Your average community ref needs to have a bit more guidance so that when it happens on their pitch and an ambulance needs to be called they can make a decision that everyone can support.

I was writing the above as OB.. was posting. Exactly the point.

 

[crossref]

The basic actions of hurdling a tackler and diving for the line are different. The former raises a distinct likelihood of boot meeting head when they are travelling in different directions. The latter does not.

But May was clearly diving, not hurdling - and yet still his boot met the tackler's head (or was millimeters from it)

So are we really to say that one is dangerous, and the other isn't?

 

[Treadmore]

But May was clearly diving, not hurdling - and yet still his boot met the tackler's head (or was millimeters from it)

So are we really to say that one is dangerous, and the other isn't?

Hurdling is also over something in front of you. I think if you jump/dive into a scenario where the head is already there then you've made it potentially dangerous. May jumped into clear space.

There's various wonder try clips on YouTube, a few similar to the May try, one indeed (Australian I think) ended with the jumper's foot landing on top of the would be tackler's head (who had come from side, as per May scenario). Nothing was said or done there either.

I've been surprised by the attention this try/action has attracted. Had May jumped a tackler in front of him, I'd have a different view.

 

[crossref]

i think the key difference is
- jumping / hurdling : you are expecting to land on your feet, so your feet will be below/in front of you
- diving : you are expecting to land on your elbows, feet will be above and behind you

Does that mean jumping more/less dangerous than diving ? Not sure

 

[Treadmore]

i think the key difference is
- jumping / hurdling : you are expecting to land on your feet, so your feet will be below you
- diving : you are expecting to land on your elbows, feet will be above you

Does that mean jumping more dangerous? Not sure

So May didn't jump then ;-)

What scenarios would you jump or hurdle with your definition that don't have a tackler in front? Avoiding an expected tap tackle, for example? That wouldn't strike me as being a dangerous jump.

 

[Rich_NL]

Hi feet left the ground, the next contact was grounding the ball in the try area. I'm not sure what else to call it than diving to score.

I agree that a successful tackle into touch wouldn't / shouldn't have been penalised.

 

[crossref]

I think a typical dive to score is a low trajectory .. avoiding a tackle by going low
May was different , he dived over a tackler

Don't ask me whether it was legal or not .. am so confused now I don't know ! :wink:

 

[Marc Wakeham]

You dive down.

You jump up.

 

[Treadmore]

You dive down.

You jump up.

Well your feet come up off the floor whichever way

 

[crossref]

You dive down.

You jump up.

Which did Jonny May do ?

 

[Dickie E]

as far as I can make out this "you can't jump over a tackle" is in the same category as "you have to let him up". Unless there is some RFU edict that I'm missing. I've never seen anything from WR.

Yes, dangerous play is illegal ... but each incident will be managed on its own merit.

 

[crossref]

as far as I can make out this "you can't jump over a tackle" is in the same category as "you have to let him up". Unless there is some RFU edict that I'm missing. I've never seen anything from WR.

Yes, dangerous play is illegal ... but each incident will be managed on its own merit.

did you think May was dangerous -- or reckless?

It didn't seem to me to be very dangerous .... and yet his boot did clip the Italian's head (or came very very close) so perhaps it was?