Jumping over the tackle again

[Ciaran Trainor]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496040401739952130

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here&#39;s the incident discussed with <a href="https://twitter.com/Toolan82?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@Toolan82</a> on The42 Rugby Weekly Extra pod yesterday after a question from one of our members.<br><br>Pita Gus Sowakula hurdles Aaron Smith to score.<br><br>This try stood in the Chiefs&#39; win over the Highlanders. <a href="https://t.co/qgsGJCQ40t">pic.twitter.com/qgsGJCQ40t</a></p>&mdash; Murray Kinsella (@Murray_Kinsella) <a href="

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496040401739952130

">February 22, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Saw this highlight from the Chiefs v Highlanders game and immediately though penalty for dangerous play but the try stood!
Needs to be eradicated from the game or we'll be seeing NFL style jumping and hurdling soon

 

[chbg]

Dangerous play for me.

 

[Zebra1922]

Dangerous play for me.

And for me to. If no contact a penalty, if contact card as well as appropriate

 

[didds]

out oif interest then, no card because the hurdler got lucky ?

 

[Balones]

I think after negating the try and awarding a penalty he will have got the message. No need to go over the top. Like he did!

 

[Dickie E]

Dangerous play for me.

Law reference? If it's the stock standard 9.11, I'd suggest there's 100 more dangerous incidents in every game than that one.

 

[Balones]

I have said in the other thread on this incident that I think that jumping over a tackle is dangerous for all sorts of reasons and while refereeing have penalised it. This is a marginal decision because it is partially part of the running action. Quite often players are seen to jump out of the way to avoid a tackle; to the side or back etc. This is generally not penalised because it doesn’t usually involve dynamic forward movement. So where do you draw the line? Also, running involves leaving the ground anyway. Again you can’t apply ‘tackling in the air’ to this situation or we wouldn’t have a game. When it comes to applying laws the referee has discretion and in lots of situations one referee would apply a particular law differently and to perhaps a different standard to another. For that reason I could support a referee applying 9.11 to this situation. Many of us may not agree, just like we may not agree with what is a legal handoff or an obstruction. A referee can apply 9.11 under law 6.5a. That is the nature of the game. It would be consistency in that match that players, coaches and spectators would be expecting.
At the same time I do expect referees to perhaps consider other aspects of the game when applying the laws. For example the level and the age of players, and perhaps even the playing conditions. As I have said, this was marginal and in relation to what you can see at this level (as per Dickie’s comment) it was for me not overly dangerous but can understand if a referee wanted to penalise it to prevent a trend or disuade players from doing it in more dangerous situations. Certainly in a junior match I would want to disuade players from doing it and the inly way you as a ref can do that is to penalise it. Sometimes referees have to make a decision based on how they ‘feel’ or how an incident ‘looks’ and there may not be a specific law that relates to the situation or incident. Is diving over a ruck to tackle someone legal or illegal? Landing on the ruck would be deemed to be I’d suggest by (almost?) everyone. Clearing the ruck and not making contact with anyone I also believe would be discouraged by penalisation in most cases because of potential danger. Doesn’t the jump over a tackle come into the same category?
In summary I’d support dangerous play even if I may not whistle myself. (On this occasion - but generally I would.)

 

[SimonSmith]

I read that their Head of refs has in fact confirmed that the try should have been disallowed.

 

[crossref]

this comes up again and again, and deserves some kind of clarification / guidance from WR. Even if not a Law change

 

[Jz558]

I'd agree a law clarification would be useful. Strikes me though that many more people would be surprised if you let it go than would be if you penalised it. The other thought I had on this was if a ball carrier gets airborne and the tackler does manage to adjust his position in time to tackle the player whilst he's in the air, would you penalise the tackler?

 

[Phil E]

There is no hard and fast answer to penalising this, it's a judgement call.

At one end of the spectrum you have a player diving along the ground with hands outstretched to make the tackle. His hands and body are 6 inches off the ground and the ball carrier just steps/jumps over his arms. Do you penalise for jumping out of the tackle?

At the other end you have a player coming in at chest height and the ball carrier jumps high into the air to hurdle over him. Do you penalise that?

You also have a hundred possibilities in between these two examples. Working up from the ground at what point do you start penalising?

 

[crossref]

There is no hard and fast answer to penalising this, it's a judgement call.

At one end of the spectrum you have a player diving along the ground with hands outstretched to make the tackle. His hands and body are 6 inches off the ground and the ball carrier just steps/jumps over his arms. Do you penalise for jumping out of the tackle?

At the other end you have a player coming in at chest height and the ball carrier jumps high into the air to hurdle over him. Do you penalise that?

You also have a hundred possibilities in between these two examples. Working up from the ground at what point do you start penalising?

this is all correct, but to me it reinforces the idea that some guidance would be useful.. Just as we (now) have for high tackles and contact in the air.

 

[Dickie E]

I read that their Head of refs has in fact confirmed that the try should have been disallowed.

Highlanders told by referees that Pita Gus Sowakula's try was illegal

It may have caught global attention, but Pita Gus Sowakula's spectacular try for the Chiefs against the Highlanders should not have stood.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[crossref]

here's St Nige ...
I don't agree with this at all - I think this is a safety issue not (as he implies) a technical issue

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496080248601034753

 

[Volun-selected]

here's St Nige ...
I don't agree with this at all - I think this is a safety issue not (as he implies) a technical issue

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496080248601034753

His logic does mean that even if no harm, the jumping is illegal and a PK, regardless of arguments about whether dangerous play or not.
If you then happen to kick the other player then dangerous play and a card.

Either way, no place in the game - though (yet again) the onus of interpretation falls on the one with the whistle. File under “I’ll know it when I see it…” I suppose.

 

[crossref]

His logic does mean that even if no harm, the jumping is illegal and a PK, regardless of arguments about whether dangerous play or not.
If you then happen to kick the other player then dangerous play and a card.

Either way, no place in the game - though (yet again) the onus of interpretation falls on the one with the whistle. File under “I’ll know it when I see it…” I suppose.

although he says jumping a tackle is legal in the act of scoring - because tackling a person in the air, in the act of scoring, is legal.

Where does all this come from ?

And what about jumping to catch a ball, does St Nige think that's illegal?

(and to think I used to get badly battered on this site criticizing St Nige..)

** I do like his videos though !

 

[Rich_NL]

That's sloppy logic from Nigel - you're not allowed to do X, therefore you can't do X, so it's not defendable...

Personally, I think the "tackling the player in the air" law should be interpreted/limited to receiving kicks (and jumping in lineouts), and jumping should be assessed on dangerousness - jumping a tackler in front of you involves boots and knees near heads, jumping as someone behind you comes in to tackle is no more dangerous to the tackler than otherwise. Tackling from the side (as for this, or the Jonny May try against Italy) is generally OK, but might depend.

 

[Locke]

Setting aside whether hurdling a tackler is dangerous play for a moment, if 9.17 is the basis on which we decide that an opponent may not tackle an oncoming ball carrier who is trying to hurdle the tackler, then I’m penalizing the hurdler under 9.3.

That being said, I interpret hurdling as dangerous play and see it as both dangerous for the hurdler and the tackler. As Rich pointed out, tackler could catch boots or knees in the face or head. If the tackler is able to try to adjust and make a tackle on the hurdler, he could easily wind up hitting him in the legs, causing the ball carrier to tumble and land on head/neck etc. I don’t see it as safe or positive play.

All that said, none of it explains why I’m fine with a ball carrier diving for the corner and a defender diving to try to stop him. ?

 

[chbg]

Law reference? If it's the stock standard 9.11, I'd suggest there's 100 more dangerous incidents in every game than that one.

Yes. No need for me to repeat the rest of the thread.

 

[SimonSmith]

That's sloppy logic from Nigel - you're not allowed to do X, therefore you can't do X, so it's not defendable...

Npt for the first time