[Law] Kick hits corner post

[didds]

just wondering... saw this recently.

In open play black kick long towards the corner in red's 22; it bounces once and hits the corner post and ends up in "touch". Ref gave the 5m lineout and that was my initial reaction too.

Now - the post isn't actually "there" so to speak - its immaterial AIU?

So is that actually a 5m lineout (to red), or a 22 d/o? ie is it actually in touch, or touch-in-goal. Becasue whilst the post isn;t actually there , in effect it is the join of the planes of touch and the goal line/tryline. ?

didds

 

[crossref]

one of the functions of the post, IMO, is to deflect the ball one way or another, so that it's clear to everyone whether it was touch or touch in goal. No tricky, fine judgement needed, which would be necessary without it.

I am not sure what you mean by it 'not being there', because if the flag actually stops the ball going out at all - ie ball bounces off the flag and rebounds into the field of play, or into the in goal, then it's play-on.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

one of the functions of the post, IMO, is to deflect the ball one way or another, so that it's clear to everyone whether it was touch or touch in goal. No tricky, fine judgement needed, which would be necessary without it.

I am not sure what you mean by it 'not being there', because if the flag actually stops the ball going out at all - ie ball bounces off the flag and rebounds into the field of play, or into the in goal, then it's play-on.

I'm guessing that perhaps didds is extrapolating the corner flag "not being there" from if a BC hits it whilst scoring to just the ball hitting it. Perhaps?

I agree. Where the ball ends up after hitting the corner flag is play on (ie in in goal, in the FoP) or lineout/QT (ie goes into touch) or 22DO/5m scrum (if it goes into touch in goal).

 

[Taff]

I reckon the Ref or TJ will just have to decide which side of the flag post the ball went - ie did it go into touch in goal or just touch?

At the end of the day, it's the Refs call.

 

[didds]

I'm guessing that perhaps didds is extrapolating the corner flag "not being there" from if a BC hits it whilst scoring to just the ball hitting it. Perhaps?

yup.

My poor explanation/use of words.

Put another way then the post is not an extesnion of the touchline and as such means nothing in itself if hit.

tx all!
didds

didds

 

[ChrisR]

The law change re. BC hitting the post has somewhat complicated things. I have always considered the post to be touch-in-goal and, as such would consider the kick in the OP to be TIG and award the option of 22 or scrum.

 

[crossref]

The law change re. BC hitting the post has somewhat complicated things. I have always considered the post to be touch-in-goal and, as such would consider the kick in the OP to be TIG and award the option of 22 or scrum.

for me that's fine if it wasn't clear - eg if the ball just takes the post out completely -- but if the ball rolled slowly up to the post, bounced off it and clearly went to one side, and into touch, would you still award TIG ?

 

[Rich_NL]

Off the top of my head, I'd call touch in goal - the tryline is the beginning of in-goal, the touchline is the beginning of in touch, the flagpole is already in touch in goal, no? Also by analogy, the base of the goal posts count as tryline...

 

[crossref]

interesting- this line of thought never occured to me. If I can see that the ball clearly went to one side of the post or the other, I'd make call (touch or TIG) accordingly.

 

[OB..]

[LAWS]22.12 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the ball[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] or a player carrying the ball [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the dead ball line[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]s without otherwise being in touch[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] or touch-in-goal [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]the ball is not out of play[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] unless it is first grounded against a flag post.[/FONT][/LAWS]The corner post used to be considered to be in touch-in-goal, but no longer.

 

[ChrisR]

for me that's fine if it wasn't clear - eg if the ball just takes the post out completely -- but if the ball rolled slowly up to the post, bounced off it and clearly went to one side, and into touch, would you still award TIG ?

The last words in 22.12: ...... unless it is first grounded against a flag post.

So, it's not touch-in-goal unless it rolls up to the post on the ground.

 

[talbazar]

Keep It stupid Simple (KISS):

"Corner post is to the touch line what the goal post is to the try line."

Same behaviour in all ways.
Pierre.

 

[Ian_Cook]

for me that's fine if it wasn't clear - eg if the ball just takes the post out completely -- but if the ball rolled slowly up to the post, bounced off it and clearly went to one side, and into touch, would you still award TIG ?

There is nothing complicated about this!

Ball strikes corner post and...

► bounces into (and remains in) the field of play or in-goal = play on
► bounces into touch = touch
► bounces into touch-in-goal = touch-in-goal

A ball carrier striking the corner post but not otherwise touching the touchline or the ground beyond is not in tocuh.

Similarly with the post at the intersection of the dead-ball-line and the touch-in-goal line, if the ball bounces off it and remains in the in-goal, it is still in play.

 

[crossref]

The last words in 22.12: ...... unless it is first grounded against a flag post.

So, it's not touch-in-goal unless it rolls up to the post on the ground.

I don't think that's what the Law meant

scenario - the ball rolls gently along the ground and into the corner flag, it comes to rest on the try-line, touching the corner flag, but NOT touching either the touch, or touch-in-goal lines.


I'd play on ...

 

[Ian_Cook]

The last words in 22.12: ...... unless it is first grounded against a flag post.

So, it's not touch-in-goal unless it rolls up to the post on the ground.

No.

"Grounding" implies player involvement

[LAWS]LAW 22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL

There are two ways a player can ground the ball:

(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.[/LAWS]


A ball cannot ground itself!!

 

[OB..]

Keep It stupid Simple (KISS):

"Corner post is to the touch line what the goal post is to the try line."

Same behaviour in all ways.
Pierre.

... except that the law was deliberately changed so the corner post per se can be ignored.

 

[talbazar]

... except that the law was deliberately changed so the corner post per se can be ignored.

Agree it was changed and that once upon a time the corner post was in touch (and the flag itself wasn't if I remember well)...

But the current behaviour is what I described, isn't it? :biggrin:

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[Jacko]

Similarly with the post at the intersection of the dead-ball-line and the touch-in-goal line, if the ball bounces off it and remains in the in-goal, it is still in play.

I often wonder why this set of flags is situated on the line itself. All they appear to be achieving is very occasionally stopping a ball from going dead and giving us a potentially very awkward decision to make. Why isn't it moved back in line with all the other flags apart from the corner posts (with their clear justification for being on the line of illustrating whether ball went into touch or TIG).

 

[crossref]

I often wonder why this set of flags is situated on the line itself. All they appear to be achieving is very occasionally stopping a ball from going dead and giving us a potentially very awkward decision to make. Why isn't it moved back in line with all the other flags apart from the corner posts (with their clear justification for being on the line of illustrating whether ball went into touch or TIG).

i tend to think that ALL the flags, apart from the the corner flags, are redundant and we could do without them

 

[OB..]

Agree it was changed and that once upon a time the corner post was in touch (and the flag itself wasn't if I remember well)...

But the current behaviour is what I described, isn't it? :biggrin:

Cheers,
Pierre.

No, it isn't (though the sample size is very small).