Kick off goes direct to touch...

[Adam]

Kick off goes direct to touch. A player from the receiving team catches the ball and attempts a quick throw in. However he is wrapped up and prevented from doing so by one of the kicker's team mates. Both the referee and his assistant referee agree it should be a penalty kick.

Where should the penalty kick be awarded?

 

[Womble]

Was it a "zombie ball" epper:

15m in on the L O T

The counter argument will be for where the game would re start so you could say centre of the half way!

 

[crossref]

It certainly is a zombie ball .. You wouldnt be awarding a pk if the ball was properly dead, would you.

I would have awarded a pk 15m in from the offence, but womble sounds right to me, 15m in on the lot , ie the halfway line.

Also .. To me this sounds like a YC as well

 

[DrSTU]

Not on half way. He's attempting a quick throw in so that means he's removed the LO on half way as an option in my book. 15m in from where the ball went into touch would be my call (as to minimise the risk that the non-offending team lose ground by moving towards their own goal line).

It certainly is a zombie ball .. You wouldnt be awarding a pk if the ball was properly dead, would you.

I would have awarded a pk 15m in from the offence, but womble sounds right to me, 15m in on the lot , ie the halfway line.

Also .. To me this sounds like a YC as well

 

[Taff]

Not on half way. He's attempting a quick throw in so that means he's removed the LO on half way as an option in my book. ...

The LO option will be on the HWL; the team entitled to the throw can take the QTI anywhere between the LOT and their own goal line, and there's sod all the oppos can legally do about it. The PK would be 15m in "where play would have restarted" which in this case would be where the thrower tried to take the QTI; which is the point I think you're making.

 

[Dickie E]

The PK would be 15m in "where play would have restarted" which in this case would be where the thrower tried to take the QTI; which is the point I think you're making.

This is a great question.

To help me develop my thoughts let me ask this slightly different (but related) question: kick-off goes directly into touch. As ref is asking the non-offending team which option they want (retake, scrum or lineout) a player from the offending team punches an opponent. Where would this penalty be taken?

a) middle of half way,
b) on half way 15 metres in,
c) option of (a) or (b) to non-offending team, or
d) something else

 

[menace]

This is a great question.

To help me develop my thoughts let me ask this slightly different (but related) question: kick-off goes directly into touch. As ref is asking the non-offending team which option they want (retake, scrum or lineout) a player from the offending team punches an opponent. Where would this penalty be taken?

a) middle of half way,
b) on half way 15 metres in,
c) option of (a) or (b) to non-offending team, or
d) something else

I see where you're going with this. Clever.

If the team that had not kicked the ball out had already selected the restart option, and then the punch occurs, you would say the restart mark had been decided, and therefore the PK would be from that mark. I think technically in law that would be ok, but I'm not sure if that's 'equitable'. I think in fairness to the team with the PK I would allow them to select the mark for the PK as foul play trumps all. Ie (c).

If kick option not selected...then team with PK IMO get to choose. Ie (c)

If all else fails in my mind at the time I'd probably end up giving the PK where the punch took place but not within 15 of touch line. (Which is probably incorrect in law).

[LAWS]
Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.
If play would restart at a 5-metre scrum, the mark for the penalty kick is at that place of the scrum.
If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.
If a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.
If a penalty kick is awarded to a team but a player of that team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee will caution or send-off the guilty player, declare the kick disallowed, and award a penalty kick to the opposing team.
If an offence is committed outside the playing area while the ball is still in play, and if that offence is not covered by any other part of this Law, the penalty kick is awarded on the 15-metre line, in line with where the offence happened.[/LAWS]

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS]If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.[/LAWS]

This one gives me some guidance (thanks Menace). This is saying that because a drop out can be taken anywhere on the 22 then an associated PK can be taken anywhere on the 22.

So for the OP I would give the non-offending team the option of:
a) PK in line with intended QTI, 15 metres in, or
b) on half way, 15 metres in ,or
c) in middle of half way.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS]If play would restart with a drop-out, the non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick anywhere on the 22-metre line.[/LAWS]

This one gives me some guidance (thanks Menace). This is saying that because a drop out can be taken anywhere on the 22 then an associated PK can be taken anywhere on the 22.

So for the OP I would give the non-offending team the option of:
a) PK in line with intended QTI, 15 metres in, or
b) on half way, 15 metres in ,or
c) in middle of half way.

That doesn't grab me, I think you might just cause confusion and then have to explain yourself..

 

[Dickie E]

That doesn't grab me, I think you might just cause confusion and then have to explain yourself..

so what would you give in my scenario in post #6?

 

[Toby Warren]

PK for me 15 in where they prevented the Qti - as that is where would have restarted but for the 'foul' play.

Anything else may be arguable but would look odd.

 

[crossref]

so what would you give in my scenario in post #6?

which is

kick-off goes directly into touch. As ref is asking the non-offending team which option they want (retake, scrum or lineout) a player from the offending team punches an opponent. Where would this penalty be taken?

I think that until reading this thread I would have instinctively given a PK where the punch took place (15m in if off the pitch)
Now having thought more I would give a PK at the centre

I appreciate the logic of offering a range of options where he PK might be (in line with the possible QTI, the LOT or on centre mark) but i think in practice it would be confusing for everyone and smacks of a bar-room Laws quiz...

 

[Dickie E]

which is


I think that until reading this thread I would have instinctively given a PK where the punch took place (15m in if off the pitch)
Now having thought more I would give a PK at the centre

So then if the receiving team does a little Irish jig with the ball to indicate that they might want to take a QT, then the PK after the punch is in line with that mark. No Irish jig, PK back on 1/2 way. Correct?

 

[Womble]

The Think tank needs to think harder!

 

[PaulDG]

I think that until reading this thread I would have instinctively given a PK where the punch took place (15m in if off the pitch)
Now having thought more I would give a PK at the centre

Seems to me, that's the only correct answer.

Obviously, it's a PK from the restart point but that point has to be the half way line - just because the non-offending player looked like he was going to take a QTI, doesn't mean he was going to, so any argument about the non-offending team having reset the LOT is just wrong.

You could offer the non-offending side a PK form the centre or from 15m with credibility but are they likely to be interested in the 15m if they can have the centre?

 

[Dickie E]

Seems to me, that's the only correct answer.

Obviously, it's a PK from the restart point but that point has to be the half way line - just because the non-offending player looked like he was going to take a QTI, doesn't mean he was going to, so any argument about the non-offending team having reset the LOT is just wrong.

You could offer the non-offending side a PK form the centre or from 15m with credibility but are they likely to be interested in the 15m if they can have the centre?

my think tank would agree with this. As I've said before, I'm not comfortable with a QT or potential QT being a legitimate restart.

 

[FlipFlop]

Would offer the choice of PK on the half way line - either 15m or middle. Play could restart at either place.

QT is taken out of the question (as not able to be taken), so taking PK there is irrelevant, as the halfway line is further up the field (unless kick went backwards). And if PK 15m on the half is offered, if they really wanted the team could take the place of the kick back to where the QT would be taken (in line and behind mark!)

 

[Simon Thomas]

Both Womble and Flip Flop would get a tick on my assessmrnt evidence sheet.

 

[Dixie]

I think menace has the answer. For me, in the OP's scenario (great question Adam), by trying to take the QTI the receiving side have already accepted the kick before the offence takes place. Only once they've done that does the kicker's team mate offend to ensure it doesn't happen. We therefore crystallise the place "where play would restart" as being a throw-on at the half-way line, so the PK should be 15m in on the half-way line. It seems to me that whatever the outcome, the only thing it can't be is anywhere on the line where the QTI was attempted.

But to Dickie E's point, if an unrelated offence occurred before the option had been selected, I think in those circumstances you'd offer the three options as palces to restart, and award the PK there (or 15m in if they chose the lineout).

 

[Taff]

I think menace has the answer. For me, in the OP's scenario (great question Adam), by trying to take the QTI the receiving side have already accepted the kick before the offence takes place. Only once they've done that does the kicker's team mate offend to ensure it doesn't happen. We therefore crystallise the place "where play would restart" as being a throw-on at the half-way line, so the PK should be 15m in on the half-way line.

Sorry, but I don't get it.

Surely play "would have restarted" where the player tried to take the QTI. In fact it would have restarted if he hadn't been obstructed. So why isn't the mark 15m in from where the QTI was attempted?

I can understand the HWL being the LoT, but he didn't try restarting the game from the LoT.