[Tackle] Knock-on in a tackle

Marc Wakeham


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Let’s deal with the scrum formation and why I feel it shows Crossref’s approach to the whole law book debate to be flawed.

The 2017 book says:
Front row
The middle player in each front row is the hooker.
The players on either side of the hooker are the props. The left side props are the
loose head props. The right side props are the tight head props.

Second Row
The two players in the second row who push on the props and the hooker are the
locks.

Optional
The outside players who bind onto the second or third row are the flankers.

Third Row
The player in the third row who usually pushes on both locks is the No.8.

[FONT=&quot]Alternatively, the No. 8 may push on a lock and a flanker.[/FONT]

So, the Flanker may bind either in the second or third row. And the No eight can bind centrally (between the two locks) or to the left or right by binding on a flanker and Lock. This is the way we generally saw teams bind (prior to 2018) that is 3-4-1

Regarding Binding 2017 required the flankers to bind on the locks
20.3 ((f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum other than front-row players , must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The 2018 book “helps” us by providing a diagram showing a 3-4-1 set up (with a conventional central bind by the 8). However, we read the diagram in parallel with the wording:

19.5 When both teams have 15 players, eight players from each team bind together in
formation as outlined in the diagram. Each team must have two props and one hooker in
the front row and two locks in the second row. Three back-row players from each team
complete the scrum.

19.7. The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

What does it tell us? Well one problem presents when trying to link the words to the diagram is that the wording of 19.5 tells us there are three “BACK ROW” players. There is only one back row player in the diagram. So we ask ourselves do we “obey” the diagram (1 back row player ) or the wording of 19.5 (3 back-row players)?

Well does 19.7 help?
“d” tells us that the flankers must bind with (at least) one arm on a lock

So, 2018 allows three in the back row. 19.5 tells us that. It also tells us that it must be 4 in the second row and 1 in the back row, the diagram tells us that.

So, If I follow the “law book contains changes” mantra do I go by the diagram or the wording of 19.5?

Well the whole body of evidence is:

2017 allows 3-4-1 or 3-2-3
2018 says 3-4-1 but then contradicts itself and allows 3-2-3
WR have stated the law has not changed.
Cross ref says the law has changed.
Both 2017 and 2018 require the flankers bind on the locks.

The only way to make sense of this is to say both 3-4-1 and 3-2-3 are allowed subject to legal binds. You can’t have 2018s contradiction of itself. So, which option stays true to the statement from WR’s (NO CHANGE!!)? Clearly it is the either option is legal.

When it is accepted that. The rewrite was poorly done / There are no changes in law. / You read the whole thing and you don’t cherry pick the bits that fit your argument. The logical conclusion is the law has not changed.

Life as a ref would be much easier if people stopped making the book more complicated. That include the WR, with its failed simplification and refs who want a conspiracy theory behind every call.

Accept that the 2018 is intended to be a simplification and not a change and the Law book makes just the same amount of sense as the old one did.

The players and watchers expect nothing to be different. WR expects nothing to be different. All societies / unions, that I am aware of, expect nothing to be different. Even the LSRFUR might expect nothing to be different (if we find a member of that society who is prepared to tell us either way we will know!).

Why make a rod for your own back?
 

Marc Wakeham


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I just did a quick check:



Simplified Law Book
5.1.18

With effect from 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January, a new simplified Law Book comes into existence. The simplified law book is designed to make the laws easier to understand while not altering the meaning of them or how the game is played. The new law book is more logically laid out, clearer in its explanations and, with various repetitions and contradictions removed, 42 per cent shorter than the 2017 version - but doesn't include the current set of Global Law Variations in operation! THESE STILL APPLY



http://www.londonrugby.com/News2.html


So the LSRFUR view is also of the view that there are no changes! Interesting!
 

Thunderhorse1986


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Does it matter that "back-row" is not defined clearly? I have never seen a flanker bind on an 8 (eg a 3-2-3 formation) but I have always considered the flankers to be "back-row" regardless... I think that is common understanding and useage. I wouldn't over-emphasise the meaning of "back-row" personally. Flankers will bind on locks, the question is whether an 8 can bind between a flanker and a lock isn't it? The diagram suggests no but that may be over-emphasising the diagram which could just be one of a number of possible formations?
 

Marc Wakeham


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My point in another discussion!

To get too forensic is never satisfactory. That is why The simplest view is keep it simple. I doubt that any scrum would pack 2-3-2. Jsut look at the 2018 book from the basic WR starting point and it is much easier to handle.
 

Thunderhorse1986


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My point in another discussion!

To get too forensic is never satisfactory. That is why The simplest view is keep it simple. I doubt that any scrum would pack 2-3-2. Jsut look at the 2018 book from the basic WR starting point and it is much easier to handle.

I agree - don't get too forensic. But the broader point on this is that 2018 guides to a certain formation (although it doesn't say "must" use this formation). If you take the diagram at face value (eg as a new referee, no knowledge of 2017 law) then you might not allow 8 to bind between lock and flanker.

But under 2017 laws we would let 8's bind in any of the 3 slots.

So that could be construed as a change, even if unintentional? Or the diagram is wong, and the wording should be more explicit that the diagram is "one example" of permitted formation.
 

ChuckieB

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I just did a quick check:



Simplified Law Book
5.1.18

With effect from 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January, a new simplified Law Book comes into existence. The simplified law book is designed to make the laws easier to understand while not altering the meaning of them or how the game is played. The new law book is more logically laid out, clearer in its explanations and, with various repetitions and contradictions removed, 42 per cent shorter than the 2017 version - but doesn't include the current set of Global Law Variations in operation! THESE STILL APPLY



http://www.londonrugby.com/News2.html


So the LSRFUR view is also of the view that there are no changes! Interesting!

"The new law book is more logically laid out, clearer in its explanations and, with various repetitions and contradictions removed, 42 per cent shorter than the 2017 version"

In whose opinion?

I suspect they were expressing more pride in the exact amount of the reduction in content, than the quality of what is now the foundation going forward.
 

Marc Wakeham


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"The new law book is more logically laid out, clearer in its explanations and, with various repetitions and contradictions removed, 42 per cent shorter than the 2017 version"

In whose opinion?

I suspect they were expressing more pride in the exact amount of the reduction in content, than the quality of what is now the foundation going forward.

Well I'm quoting the LSRFUR website. So I guess, theirs.


The point of the Quote was to give Crossref's society point of view as he is unable / unwilling to tell us.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I agree - don't get too forensic. But the broader point on this is that 2018 guides to a certain formation (although it doesn't say "must" use this formation). If you take the diagram at face value (eg as a new referee, no knowledge of 2017 law) then you might not allow 8 to bind between lock and flanker.

But under 2017 laws we would let 8's bind in any of the 3 slots.

So that could be construed as a change, even if unintentional? Or the diagram is wong, and the wording should be more explicit that the diagram is "one example" of permitted formation.

That's why unions / societies run training secions etc.So that new refs and indeed existing referees can all "sing from the same hymn sheet".

In the context of already being told that there are no law changes. It would seem incorrect to construe anything as a change intentional or otherwise.

Certainly something is wrong. That is why we do need to pointing out errors to WR through appropriate routes. What we rerally do not need is people arguing that they know better than the people who commissioned the re-write as to its intentions.

Accept the book as a very poorly worded mess up and keep reffign as you did up until Christmas and you'll not go far wrong.

I'll leave this discussion now and Crossref can moan about me being rude again.
 

ChuckieB

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Well I'm quoting the LSRFUR website. So I guess, theirs.


The point of the Quote was to give Crossref's society point of view as he is unable / unwilling to tell us.

Looks like a cut and paste and probably does reflect any form of agreed opinion on part of LSRFUR.

If it was then we should perhaps be more worried that the disease of the 2018 law book failings is taking hold!
 

didds

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yet it is conclusive that in order to achieve that formation, the 8 must bind a lock with both arms. Can't have it both ways and as there are no changes.....

if there are no changes here, then clearly for years/decades teams have broken the law unpunished...

didds
 

didds

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Does it matter that "back-row" is not defined clearly? I have never seen a flanker bind on an 8 (eg a 3-2-3 formation)


Ive never seen 3-2-3 ... but Ive often seen 3-3-2 with one flanker binding to the side of the #8. strictly speaking they haven;t then bound on a 2nd row as they've bound on the #8 as they would the second row normally - never PKd mind...

why? to protect channel 1 ball from escaping? To add drive to that side of the scrum?

didds
 

thepercy


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I'm not sure. Last season if the ball clearly came off Red last, who is tackling Blue, and went towards the Blue DBL I think I would have called knock on by Red, scrum; knocked on in the tackle. Of course it would need to be clear obvious, but may not specifically be a "rip" or deliberately.

Interestingly your use of the word "deliberatelty" for the final option suggests it should be a penalty to blue for a "deliberate" knock on by Red :chin:

I think instead of "deliberately" in rows 3 and 4 it should read, "without attempting to tackle the ball carrier".
 

crossref


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The wording to describe the scenario is taken from the Law Book

A player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands

Thats the language used in 2017 and the Clarification s

The 2018 version omits the word deliberately . I have to say I didn't see that as significant change , but perhaps I was wrong .
 

crossref


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Here is the table again , as it was such a long time ago


Anyway - back to the OP - here's a clearer table of the differences between the 2017 and 2018 Law books

Tackler ActionBall Direction20172018Clarification
Red tackler happens to
dislodge ball from Blue hands
Toward Red DBL12.Defn.Para 3
Knock on by Blue
2014/1
Knock on By Blue
Red tackler happens to
dislodge ball from Blue hands
Toward Blue DBL 11.2
Knock On by Red
Red tackler deliberately rips or
knocks ball from Blue’s hands
Toward Red DBL12.Defn.Para 4
Play On
11.5.b
Play On
2011/4 & 2014/1
Play On
Red tackler deliberately rips or
knocks ball from Blue’s hands
Toward Blue DBL2011/4
Knock On by Red
 

Marc Wakeham


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yet it is conclusive that in order to achieve that formation, the 8 must bind a lock with both arms. Can't have it both ways and as there are no changes.....

Why does he have to bind on both locks? He could bind on one and leave his other arm loose. If he wanted to.
 

crossref


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The new Law Book

1 deleted the Law that said the number 8 could bind between a flanker and a lock

2 replaced it with Law saying the scrum forms up as laid out in the diagram .. and included a diagram

The new law book has its faults but in this particular instance I really don't see how they could have put it any clearer !
 

ChuckieB

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Why does he have to bind on both locks? He could bind on one and leave his other arm loose. If he wanted to.

And of course that is something to coach as a good scrummaging technique? Leave an arm off one of the locks while binding to the other?
 

Camquin

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The deliberate rip forward case is obviously a knock on under 11.2.

Just wondering would anyone penalise a player for deliberately ripping the ball in the direction of the opposition DBL?
If so, what would you do if it prevented a try from being score?
 
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