Knock on into touch - option?

[rjbhutton]

The latest law trial for knock on "straight" into touch, option of scrum at the knock on or lineout where the ball crossed the line. My question: does it matter whether the ball bounced in-play before going into touch? If the ball bounces in play and then goes into touch, do you still provide the options? or is it only if the ball is knocked directly into touch, "on the full"? Does it make any difference how many bounces? when does the ball become playable/"live" again... e.g. if a player is waiting for the ball to go into touch (in order to take a quick throw for example... although this would be unusual, requiring a long knock on).
thanks.

 

[menace]

As far as I understand, the "straight" is to signify it didn't touch anyone after the knock on and going into touch. It has nothing to do with how many bounces....it can dribble or roll into touch and the options are available (it just cant touch anyone on the way there). But happy to stand corrected.

 

[Bunniksider]

I'm with Menace as above.

 

[Davet]

Add new 12.1(e)
Knock-on or throw forward into touch. When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward, the non-offending team will be offered the choice of a lineout at the point the ball crossed the touch line or a scrum at the place of the knock-on or throw forward. The non-offending team may exercise the former option by taking a quick throw-in.


Note - doesn't say "directly" into touch, or even "straight" into touch - simply when the ball goes into touch from a KO or TF. So it may bounce, or even roll.

The option to take the touch rather than the knock on may be exercised by simply taking the QT.

If it touched another player then that would be either a team mate of knocker-on ie an accidental offside, scrum against KO team if either side gained an advantage OR if no advantage either way play on - so could be the option anyaway - judgement call by ref; or touched by opponent of KO side, menaing the side that KO get the throw in- except that that would be no advantage so we have the KO.

 

[Dickie E]

If it touched another player then that would be either a team mate of knocker-on ie an accidental offside, scrum against KO team if either side gained an advantage

I don't think you've written this right. If opponents get an advantage, it is play on.

OR if no advantage either way play on - so could be the option anyaway -

I don't think so. In this (very unlikely) event it is scum only (IMHO)

 

[Davet]

Dickie

Yes, OK - agreed there ios something awry in what I wrote. What I really wanted to say was: if the ball is knocked on, touches a team mate of the knocker-onner then goes into touch, it is accidental offside. If the opponents are disadvantaged then we get a scrum, if they are not then we play on, which in this case means the ball has been knocked on and gone into touch (after striking a player) - so can you offer the option? Or is it Lineout only? The "scrum only" option only works if we say the accidental offside disadvantaged the opposition. If it didn't it's a Linout only, or possibly the option - but it can't be "scrum only".

 

[Dickie E]

I can't see how "knock on -> hits teammate -> rolls into touch" can do anything other than disadvantage the opposition

 

[Davet]

If it was going into touch anyway.... and they had no-one near enough to play it.... how have they been disadvantaged?

 

[Dickie E]

If it was going into touch anyway.... and they had no-one near enough to play it.... how have they been disadvantaged?

Davet, too many ifs in there for me. I'd go back for the scrum for the knock-on.

I'd also interpret [LAWS]When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward[/LAWS] to mean "without touching or being touched by another player".

How about this? Centre passes to his winger but the pass is forward. The best the winger can do is get a hand on the ball and knock it backwards into touch. I would give scrum for forward pass - no option.

And you?

 

[OB..]

Davet, too many ifs in there for me. I'd go back for the scrum for the knock-on.

I'd also interpret [LAWS]When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward[/LAWS] to mean "without touching or being touched by another player".

How about this? Centre passes to his winger but the pass is forward. The best the winger can do is get a hand on the ball and knock it backwards into touch. I would give scrum for forward pass - no option.

And you?

Agreed. The ball went into touch from the knock back, not from the forward pass.

However if the winger knocks it forward into touch, do you go back to a scrum for the forward pass?

 

[Dickie E]

However if the winger knocks it forward into touch, do you go back to a scrum for the forward pass?

8.5 would suggest so

[LAWS]8.5 More than one infringement

(a) When there is more than one infringement by the same team:

If advantage cannot be applied to the second offence the referee applies the appropriate sanction to the first offence.[/LAWS]

 

[Camquin]

If the non-offending side takes a quick throw in and are haring off towards the try line.
Do you need to call them back.

Camquin

 

[smeagol]

If the non-offending side takes a quick throw in and are haring off towards the try line.
Do you need to call them back.

Camquin

Yes. They cannot take a QTI if there is no lineout.

 

[OB..]

YOoucannot play advantage when the ball is dead, so we are back to an old conundrum: Can a team be given advantage by the referee or do they have to do something to earn it?

 

[The Fat]

However if the winger knocks it forward into touch, do you go back to a scrum for the forward pass?

Yes.
No lineout option in this case.
If the centre passes forward and the the ball goes into touch without the winger getting a finger to it, then option of LO where it crossed the touch line or scrum where the centre threw the ball forward.
If the centre throws forward and the winger gets a hand to it and then it crosses the touch line, either forward of or behind the winger, then call it back for the scrum for the throw forward.
Keeps everything simple and IMO as the new law is intended to work.

If the non offending team take a QT when there should be no LO option, then blow it up and make them come back for the scrum.

 

[crossref]

YOoucannot play advantage when the ball is dead, so we are back to an old conundrum: Can a team be given advantage by the referee or do they have to do something to earn it?

And the other conundrum, if a ball goes into touch and the quick throw is on then is it properly dead? It's the old zombie ball

If a blue player catching a high ball knocked on then tried to re gather and knocked on again this time into touch , I think it would be harsh to stop red chaser from immediately taking a quick throw in

 

[The Fat]

If a blue player catching a high ball knocked on then tried to re gather and knocked on again this time into touch , I think it would be harsh to stop red chaser from immediately taking a quick throw in

If a blue player knocks on in the middle of the field from a high ball, we would play a scrum advantage to red. If the blue fumbler touches the ball again before red get a chance to play it with advantage, we blow the whistle and play the scrum with red to feed. Why should that change near the side line?
The only time you would play the LO(with QT available)/scrum option would be if blue player attempts to catch a high ball and juggles the ball which goes forward and then gets his hands to it again before he finally drops/fails to secure it and the ball goes to ground and into touch (it hasn't been a knock on until it touches another player or the ground).

 

[crossref]

If a blue player knocks on in the middle of the field from a high ball, we would play a scrum advantage to red. If the blue fumbler touches the ball again before red get a chance to play it with advantage, we blow the whistle and play the scrum with red to feed..

Not necessarily, if the second knock on is directly at the feet of a red chaser you will play advantage again from the second knock on, expecting the red player to pick it up

I don't see why the off balance but alert quick thinking red player couldn't allow the ball to roll into touch and then, just like any other knock on, take advantage of the LAT by taking a quick throw

 

[NikneRef]

Do you give the option if there is a knock on into touch in goal? Its a big difference to the attacking team, either a 5m opposing scrum if no option or a 22 drop if there is an option and its taken

 

[Dickie E]

Do you give the option if there is a knock on into touch in goal? Its a big difference to the attacking team, either a 5m opposing scrum if no option or a 22 drop if there is an option and its taken

No. This only applies to touch