Law 21.6 - B) Scoring From A Free Kick ?

[jdeagro]

Hi,

I guess I'm a little confused by the following law: [LAWS] 21.6 (b) The team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped goal until after the ball next becomes dead, or until after an opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum taken instead of a free kick.[/LAWS]

My understanding is that it's saying after a free kick is taken (and I'm specifically talking about a free kick "quick tap" so that the team taking the free kick is still retaining possession of the ball), if the player who took the free kick "quick tap" passes the ball back to one of his teammates after, that teammate is not allowed to score a drop goal until after the ball next becomes dead.

This seems a little weird if my understanding is correct. If that is true, what occurs if the player does successfully drop kick the ball through the uprights? Does play continue (assuming the ball didn't fly out the back)? Or is played stopped, and something like a scum is awarded at the place the drop kick was taken?

Also, what is considered making the ball dead (other than it going into touch)? I.e. A maul? A ruck? The ball is dropped backwards on the ground?

Thanks

 

[Ian_Cook]

Hi,

I guess I'm a little confused by the following law: [LAWS] 21.6 (b) The team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped goal until after the ball next becomes dead, or until after an opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum taken instead of a free kick.[/LAWS]

My understanding is that it's saying after a free kick is taken (and I'm specifically talking about a free kick "quick tap" so that the team taking the free kick is still retaining possession of the ball), if the player who took the free kick "quick tap" passes the ball back to one of his teammates after, that teammate is not allowed to score a drop goal until after the ball next becomes dead.

You understand this correctly. After the free kick is taken, no amount of passing will end the Drop Goal restriction. The restriction ends when any of the following occur

1. The ball becomes dead (for example, goes into touch)
2. The ball carrier is tackled
3. An opponent touches the ball in general play.

This seems a little weird if my understanding is correct. If that is true, what occurs if the player does successfully drop kick the ball through the uprights? Does play continue (assuming the ball didn't fly out the back)? Or is played stopped, and something like a scum is awarded at the place the drop kick was taken?

The kick would be treated as if it was not an attempted dropped goal, i.e. caught in-goal and grounded = drop out 22, kicked dead through in-goal = options to the opponents - drop out 22 or scrum where the ball was kicked from with opposition to throw in.

Also, what is considered making the ball dead (other than it going into touch)? I.e. A maul? A ruck? The ball is dropped backwards on the ground?

Any occasions when the ball would normally be considered out of play;

1. In touch
2. Dead in-goal or touch in goal
3. If the referee stops the game for injury/safety reasons

 

[jdeagro]

O wow. So although highly unlikely, in the event that a team takes a free kick "quick tap" and retains possession of the ball, without being tackled, and without any further stoppages from the referee for 20 minutes, (i.e. just clean quality open play from the team that took the free kick "quick tap" for 20 minutes), the team would not be allowed a valid drop goal attempt for those 20 minutes?

Also, another question regarding another law subset of the Free Kick laws: [LAWS](f) Preventing the free kick. If the opposing team charge and prevent the free kick being taken, the kick is disallowed. Play restarts with a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.[/LAWS]
&
[LAWS](h) Charged down. If opponents charge down a free kick in the playing area, play continues.[/LAWS]

I guess what I don't understand is how someone could prevent a free kick from occurring without charging it down. In other words, what type of prevention does Law (f) refer to that is not a charge down? Evidently Law (f) results in a different outcome then Law (h).

Thank You,
-Jon

 

[TigerCraig]

I guess what I don't understand is how someone could prevent a free kick from occurring without charging it down. In other words, what type of prevention does Law (f) refer to that is not a charge down? Evidently Law (f) results in a different outcome then Law (h).

Thank You,
-Jon

if the defenders charged so as to tackle the free kick taker, or make him run or pass to avoid getting tackled that would be considered "preventing" teh kick being taken.

And remember they can charge as soon as he makes his move to kick (having said that if he is too useless to get boot to ball before the oppos can run 10 metres he deserves what he gets.

(and please don't ask what happens if the team with the free kick take a scrum option .... [inside joke for longer termers here])

 

[didds]

Or takes the ball off him!

I'd say its this no-charge down prevention that is the difficult one... in that the ball is not yet in play - "live" - because the kick has not yet been taken. So in theiry (?() the to-be-kicker can;t be tackled... running away just means the kick as YET has not been taken, it hasn't actually been PREVENTED. Ditto passing to someone else - play is not live yet, the kick hasn;t bbeen made.

I can only summise that as a sort of stalemate develops - where the kicker is in such a position that as soon as he kicks the ball he will get mullered! - the ref just views that as "prevented" if only on safety grounds!

On the very few occassions I've seen this happen as the defenders have approached the kicker everyone starts to lok panicky .. the kicker doesn;t know what to do 9and is usually somewhat surprised at what is happening) and the defnders don; know what they are supposed to do!

didds

 

[crossref]

O wow. So although highly unlikely, in the event that a team takes a free kick "quick tap" and retains possession of the ball, without being tackled, and without any further stoppages from the referee for 20 minutes, (i.e. just clean quality open play from the team that took the free kick "quick tap" for 20 minutes), the team would not be allowed a valid drop goal attempt for those 20 minutes?

if they have posssession and are not tackled, then I think they'd plan on scoring a try or two rather than a drop goal !!

 

[Pinky]

Ian, is correct, except that I don't think an opponent has to touch it in open play, touching it at all works for me. eg a maul is formed when the defending side latch on to the ball (no tackle), attackers rip it free and pass it out of the maul to the 10, good to go for a drop goal for me. Also ball is dead if ref whistles for scrum, unplayable. Might not have been touched by opposition, but again good to go for drop goal from that scrum.

 

[Davet]

Maul or ruck follwoing a QT FK, and defenders touch the ball - DG is on.

Scrum in lieu of kick - we don't count defenders in the scrum touching the ball - as the law says - the restriction applies to a scrum equally to a kick - we worry about defenders touching the ball after the FK, and we worry about tyhem touching the ball after the scrum.

The chargers can charge the kicker as soon as he approaches the kick, so in the unlikely even that the ball was set on the ground, the kicker decides what he's gouing to do, and then strolls towatrds the ball preparatory to kicking it, as soon as he is clearly strating to appraoch in order to kick then he can be charged - if the chargers get to the ball first they can simply boot it away - and win a scrum.

But since the guy will keep the ball in his hand, and either punt ot ta[p then frankly that scenario is most unlikely.

Unless the kicker is very silly and very slow.

 

[Dixie]

The chargers can charge the kicker as soon as he approaches the kick, so in the unlikely event that the ball was set on the ground, the kicker decides what he's going to do, and then strolls towards the ball preparatory to kicking it, as soon as he is clearly starting to approach in order to kick then he can be charged

The inference from Davet's post is that approaching to pick up the ball from the ground is the signal for the oppo to charge forward. Is this correct?

[LAWS]21.8(e) Charging the free kick. Once they have retired the necessary distance, players of the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the kick being taken. They may charge the free kick as soon as the kicker starts to approach to kick.[/LAWS]

Am I alone in seeing a BIG difference between approaching a ball to pick it up, and approaching to kick?

 

[jdeagro]

Yeah it just seems really weird for rugby. So if a player retreated 10m they are allowed to advance on to the player on the opposite team taking the FK, and even though play has not yet been restarted until he kicks the ball, they can still kick it / snatch away from him?

Also, again for the purpose of a FK QT, at what point would it be considered ok to charge the player on that? As soon as they move their leg to begin the QT? And if for example, the player started to take a QT by moving their leg but then decided to give the ball to another teammate of theirs to take the kick instead, would the opposing players be allowed to charge during this whole time the player is giving the ball to his teammate?

Thanks

 

[OB..]

Yeah it just seems really weird for rugby. So if a player retreated 10m they are allowed to advance on to the player on the opposite team taking the FK, and even though play has not yet been restarted until he kicks the ball, they can still kick it / snatch away from him?

Play restarts when the player "offers to kick" as the law used to put it.

Also, again for the purpose of a FK QT, at what point would it be considered ok to charge the player on that? As soon as they move their leg to begin the QT? And if for example, the player started to take a QT by moving their leg but then decided to give the ball to another teammate of theirs to take the kick instead, would the opposing players be allowed to charge during this whole time the player is giving the ball to his teammate?

Thanks

If players mess around they cannot complain if they fool the referee as well.

 

[Dixie]

Play restarts when the player "offers to kick" as the law used to put it.

Indeed. I take it you wouldn't consider that walking to the ball to pick it up counts as "offering to kick"?

 

[OB..]

Indeed. I take it you wouldn't consider that walking to the ball to pick it up counts as "offering to kick"?

If he puts it down, spits on his hands, and then picks it up again, I might ....

 

[Dixie]

If he puts it down, spits on his hands, and then picks it up again, I might ....

OK, let's put a scenario round that.

Foden watches the high ball intently as it descends from a height. He can hear the clattering hooves of Aurelien Rougerie approaching at an alarming rate, but refuses to be put off. He catches and calls MARK, just fractionally before the big Frenchman barrels into his midriff. Ref blows; Foden is badly winded, and releases the ball. He gets gingerly to his feet, and the physio checks him over as he gathers his breath, hands on head, wandering slightly from the mark. Ref enquires whether he's OK to continue; gets a nod; blows Time On. Foden moves towards the ball, triggering an onrush from the French, who get to it first.

What is Allain Rolland to do now?

 

[Davet]

I suggest he applies common sense and uses his experience to determine if the player was addressing the ball or merely picking up prior to a punt.

Judgement.

 

[tim White]

OK, let's put a scenario round that.


What is Allain Rolland to do now?

He allows the French to 'score' whilst looking like Dicque Heads, blows time off, calls Capitaine and explains all his team ARE Dicque Heads, awards PK for stupidity when ball out of play, blows for time on, re-start PK to defence.:buttkick:

 

[Pedro]

a team takes a free kick "quick tap" and retains possession of the ball, without being tackled, and without any further stoppages from the referee for 20 minutes, (i.e. just clean quality open play from the team that took the free kick "quick tap" for 20 minutes), the team would not be allowed a valid drop goal attempt for those 20 minutes?

20 Minutes open play, without being tackled and no score? I think I used to play for that team!

 

[Ian_Cook]

20 Minutes open play, without being tackled and no score? I think I used to play for that team!

The "Bolton Wanderers Rubbish Tins" scenario comes to mind.