Line-out option Global Law Trial

[andyr8603]

Can I just ask a question about the following GLT 4. 21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements: Lineout alternative. A team awarded a penalty or a free kick at a lineout may choose a further lineout, they throw in. This is in addition to the scrum option.
I understand the option being offered, what I would like to clarify is what types of offences are 'at a lineout' for the purposes of giving a line-out alternative. For example does it include offside by non-participants?

 

[Womble]

Think you answered that yourself with "non partisipants"

 

[andyr8603]

Yes, I thought I had answered the question. But then I thought some more. Offside by non-participants under Law 19 is offside 'at a lineout'. Much the same as offside under 16.5 is offside 'at a ruck'. So I read it that the lineout option in addition to penalty and scrum mustt be available under the Global Law Trial?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Interesting question Andy - and I have had a second longer think about it. Initially I viewed it as all Law 19 offences including non-participants like you had.

Now my view is the lineout option applies for all FK or PK offence listed in Law 19 until the line out has ended that would result in a 15m FK or PK, so as Womble says that is participants in the line-out area. Also the view of a RFU 'professional' staff member.

It was said consistently at Group, Federation & Society to think about 'what is IRB's intent of LAT'.

 

[Dixie]

^^^^

and the intent of the LAT is to avoid the silliness of a team taking the ball 15m in, kicking laterally to touch, and then throwing in. I doubt that the intent can answer the question - if the original lineout was in the 5m, the non-offending attacking team would still take their PK and kick for touch, resulting in a 5m lineout. They may well prefer a straight lineout option to avoid the risk of kicking into touch-in-goal.

 

[andyr8603]

and Dixie has, for me, hit the nail firmly on the head. What did the IRB seek to achieve? I agree that they are trying to avoid the nonsense of the kick to touch from the 15m line for the team that is dominant in the catch and drive. Non-participants, especially those defending near to the goal-line are often offside at line-outs, keen to get defenders in position to counter-maul or guard the fringes. Seems crazy that a team being offended against can't have a further line-out option, without having to go through the rigmarol of a kick to touch, from this type of offence. But then, what do I know :smile:

 

[Dixie]

AND ANOTHER THING!

Unless we are very close to the offending team's goal line, the skipper will decline the option, as that merely gives him a lineout on (say) the halfway, whereas if he kicks for touch and then throws in, he can get a lineout on the 22. There can be no harm in making the offer, as it will either be a relevant one (i.e. avoiding the unnecessary lateral kick to set up the lineout everyone knows is coming) or it will be declined in the interests of getting closer to the offending team's goal line.

I can't see any justification for NOT making the offer.

 

[FlipFlop]

The issue is one I raised in a question on another thread...

Say the LO is 15m from the try line. So the offside line is the 5m line.

Now the backs are offside. Can they have the lineout? And if so, where is it? Original lineout place, or on the 5m line? Does it matter if it is the near side winger, or the outside centre who is offside (could it be on the otherside of the pitch for example?).

So does the lineout advance the 10m, or not... This is the situation I expect to face, as the kicker might not want to risk a kick to touch with only a few meters lee-way from the centre of the park to get a lineout.

Additionally needing 7 points to win a game with timeup, the lineout might be to their advantage (can take this lineout, but can't kick to touch and take it).

Like the idea, but needs more clarity around the fringes....

 

[OB..]

I like Simon Thomas's analysis, and in the absence of any other guidance, it is the line I shall take.

 

[FlipFlop]

Or think with the team with weaker kickers (say ladies, juniors etc)

The offside in the middle of the park, won't make touch with a kick (or if they do it will only be 1 or 2m forward). Can they now have the lineout?

when people say that teams won't take it, I think you are assuming more skill than a lot of teams have! (especially away from men's teams in the main rugby playing lands)

 

[Pinky]

Wot ST says. Interestingly (or perhaps not?) the SRU have asked if there is a requirement for the opposition to play the ball following a linout taken in stead of a FK before a drop goal may be scored.

 

[dave_clark]

ah, so that's where chopper has gone :biggrin:

 

[Pinky]

That's a bit rude on our Cornish friend. The point is that the law is clear on a scrum taken instead of a FK, but was left silent on the issue of a lineout taken instead of a FK, so they just want clarity

 

[andyr8603]

Chopper? Now, I am lost?

 

[Pinky]

Chopper? Now, I am lost?

Some might say "Lucky you"

 

[OB..]

Chopper? Now, I am lost?

If you have the time and are feeling masochistic, just read a thread he has posted in.

 

[Taff]

Chopper? Now, I am lost?

It's an inside joke, which in fairness you wouldn't get because you've only just joined. Chopper was a very frequent poster who used to come up with some outlandish scenarios, which he repeated at every opportunity even though people had given him the answer and therefore annoyed a lot of people in the meantime. However, he had the skin of a rhino and no matter how many times he was told he was getting irritating, it just didn't sink in.

Being keen I started reading Choppers posts religiously - thinking I would be prepared for every eventuality no matter how bizarre. In reality I just got more and more confused, and found that things were a lot clearer in my head when I didn't read them.

 

[andyr8603]

Oh I see....Well I thought my scenario a reasonably likely one, but hey-ho. Maybe I'm just so good at catching non-participants offside :tongue:

 

[crossref]

Wot ST says. Interestingly (or perhaps not?) the SRU have asked if there is a requirement for the opposition to play the ball following a linout taken in stead of a FK before a drop goal may be scored.

I think that's actually a very good question.

completely irrelevant at grass roots where drop goals are as rare as hen's teeth, but quite significant at elite level.

 

[buff]

I think it would make sense to treat the lineout in the same way as a scrum. Which is probably why they won't.