Line-out, yes or no?

[Mipper]

I thought that I knew the laws "quite" well, and I was pretty sure that I had the laws around when a ball is in or out of touch, pretty well covered.

Yesterday however, I got into a discussion with two fellow refs and a senior coach, who all had a different view on a law that I find quite clear!!!

Perhaps I am going mad, but I can't seem to agree with them, so I'll throw this out;

Penalty Kick is kicked for touch.
Defender, who is standing OFF the pitch, jumps and whilst in mid air catches the ball
Ball has crossed the plane of the touchline
Defender lands IN PLAY and passes to a team mate

To me, this is PLAY ON

My companions insist that this is not play on, but a line-out throw to the kicking team, as the defender had jumped from in touch (which is true), the ball has passed the plane of touch (which is also true).

To me, this is covered quite clearly in Law 18.2b, but with others who should know, I am starting to doubt myself. Am I badly mis-understanding this law?

 

[crossref]

you are obviously correct.
but perhaps you and your colleagues were at cross purposese imagining something different.

Or even if not, I don't really blame them, Law 18 has become so complicated.

18.2.b

1. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
   1. The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player who is in the playing area.
   2. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.
   3. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.
   4. A player, who is in touch, kicks or knocks the ball, but does not hold it, provided it has not reached the plane of touch.

 

[Pedro]

For me, 18.2.b covers that, and i see it as you do -
2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
a) The ball reaches the plane of touch but is caught, knocked or kicked by a player who is in the playing area.
b) A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

Edit: Sorry crossref - posted before i saw yours

 

[Phil E]

You are correct Mipper.

 

[Mipper]

@crossref @Pedro thank you gents (or ladies!), I am happy to be re-assured.

Yes, it can be bloody complicated, and whatsmore I suspect that if I ever had to adjudge a player standing in touch and knocking a ball infield that has not reached touch (18.2d), that may elicit some conversation on and off the pitch !

 

[crossref]

@crossref @Pedro thank you gents (or ladies!), I am happy to be re-assured.

Yes, it can be bloody complicated, and whatsmore I suspect that if I ever had to adjudge a player standing in touch and knocking a ball infield that has not reached touch (18.2d), that may elicit some conversation on and off the pitch !

also as a referee, it's quite likely you are standing some distance from the touchline and not really in a good position to judge whether or not the ball has crossed the plane or not (I know that doesn't matter in this particular scenario).

Law 18 is written with the assumption that everyone has ARs to make decisions.

 

[Nilo]

Agreed with everyone else here, it is quite clear in 18.2.b. I suspect where part of the confusion can come from is from 18.8.b which states

c. Ball is kicked from a penalty:

Event	Location of the mark of touch	Who throws in
A player kicks the ball into touch (either directly or first bouncing in the field of play or hitting an opponent or the referee).	Where the ball reaches the touchline.	The kicking team.
A player, who is in touch, catches the ball irrespective of whether the ball has reached the touchline.	Where the ball reaches the touchline or, if the ball hasn’t reached the touchline, where the player catching the ball is standing.	The kicking team.
A player, who is in touch, picks up a ball that has not reached the plane of touch.	Where that player is standing.	The kicking team.

Not that this overrides 18.2, but perhaps where sometimes the confusion comes in as they deem the player to be 'in touch'.

 

[crossref]

excellent spot Nilo !

18.8.b is envisaging a player standing in touch - not a leaping player. But I can easily imagine someone reading ONLY 18.8.b thinking it applied.

as I say - Law 18 has become exceedingly complex

 

[Dickie E]

If you were king of the world, how would you change this law?

 

[crossref]

If you were king of the world, how would you change this law?

Touch

1. The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when the ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
   1. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area
   2. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal

who put the ball in touch: the last player to play it when it was not in touch.
if a player in touch catches or picks up a moving ball, he has not put it into touch. If he picks up a stationary ball he has put it into touch.

No need to judge the plane

 

[chbg]

Touch

1. The ball is in touch or touch-in-goal when the ball or ball-carrier touches the touchline, touch-in-goal line or anything beyond.
2. The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
   1. A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area
   2. A player jumps from the playing area and knocks (or catches and releases) the ball back into the playing area, before landing in touch or touch-in-goal

who put the ball in touch: the last player to play it when it was not in touch.
if a player in touch catches or picks up a moving ball, he has not put it into touch. If he picks up a stationary ball he has put it into touch.

No need to judge the plane

Why do you need to explain (a few instances) when the ball is not in touch? Just enforce the literal simple wording. As long as air is not considered to be 'anything' beyond.

 

[crossref]

Why do you need to explain (a few instances) when the ball is not in touch? Just enforce the literal simple wording. As long as air is not considered to be 'anything' beyond.

Give us your wording?

 

[chbg]

Give us your wording?

The wording of your first point.

 

[Rich_NL]

Crossref- is there a difference in outcome between red catching blue's kick 1m infield with a toe on the touchline, or 5m outside, or leaving it to bounce 5m outside? (Assuming the kick was taken and lands between the 22s, in open play)

 

[crossref]

Crossref- is there a difference in outcome between red catching blue's kick 1m infield with a toe on the touchline, or 5m outside, or leaving it to bounce 5m outside? (Assuming the kick was taken and lands between the 22s, in open play)

There is now, of course, the first is a blue lineout the second is a red one

In the old days they were the same (red) and I think that was better, overall -clearer laws and easier to ref accurately

 

[Locke]

I agree the “plane of touch” concept makes refereeing and playing this unnecessarily complicated and would gladly remove it.

 

[Pinky2]

The other thing I would change is to not allow a player standing outside the playing area to jump into the playing area catching the ball if it has gone beyond the plane. If you want to jump and play the ball you should have to start that from on the pitch and if you catch the ball finish on the pitch too!

 

[didds]

i suppose the problem with that is community refs with no ARs needing to now judge a taking off point from potentially dozens of metres away, at an angle etc ...

 

[Dickie E]

I'm not a fan of tailoring laws because a jurisdiction can't/won't resource ARs or TJs. If it makes sense to have ARs/TJs then sort that out

 

[crossref]

It was the other way round really, the old laws that we had for decades were written so that they worked for everyone, whether you had ARs or not. The newer laws were written with pro rugby in mind