[Line out] Lineout over after uncontested maul

[DocY]

A question I was asked on Saturday got me thinking: I had the almost ubiquitous question about "what if we decide not to join a maul at a lineout?", and realised I'm not 100% sure when the lineout is over in this case.

The situation is this: jumper comes down with the ball and immediately hands it back to a team mate coming round in anticipation of a maul who is bound onto him. The not-a-maul doesn't move forward, so no immediate infringement.

Has the lineout ended then? My feeling it's covered under "hands the ball to a peeling player" so has ended, but would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts.

 

[Rich_NL]

I don't think it's ended, but it's set up to turn into a penalty for obstruction as soon as the opposition go for the ball carrier.

 

[Taff]

You may find THIS thread useful.

As far as I can see, there are 3 options:

1. Opponents step out of the LO = PK
2. Ball won and kept at the front = Play On
3. Ball won and handed to the back player = Shout "Use it" and if they don't = scrum for accidental offside.

 

[DocY]

You may find THIS thread useful.As far as I can see, there are 3 options:

1. Opponents step out of the LO = PK
2. Ball won and kept at the front = Play On
3. Ball won and handed to the back player = Shout "Use it" and if they don't = scrum for accidental offside.

Thanks - I was just thinking about the last case and what would happen if the opposition come around before the ball has been used (maybe the ref is slow to shout "use it"). The clarification doesn't make it clear whether the lineout is over at this point.

I like Rich's point - if the ball has been shifted back the ball carrier has blockers (which would be treated the same as if the non-maul moved forwards, I'd guess) so they'd get a scrum without having to go round the side..

 

[crossref]

I think the line out has ended, hasn't it

(b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.1234
This includes the following:
When the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked out of the lineout, the lineout ends.
When the ball or a player carrying the ball moves into the area between the 5-metre line and the touchline, the lineout ends.
When a lineout player hands the ball to a player who is peeling off, the lineout ends.
When the ball is thrown beyond the 15-metre line, or when a player takes or puts it beyond that line, the lineout ends.
When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.
When the ball becomes unplayable in a lineout, the lineout ends. Play restarts with a scrum.

so a player can run round and get the ball.

 

[DocY]

That was my initial reaction, but I'm not sure the bound team mate counts as peeling. It doesn't look like conventional peeling and he's not doing it to catch the ball knocked or passed back, but maybe I'm getting hung up on wordings (again).

 

[crossref]

hmmm....

 

[RobLev]

That was my initial reaction, but I'm not sure the bound team mate counts as peeling. It doesn't look like conventional peeling and he's not doing it to catch the ball knocked or passed back, but maybe I'm getting hung up on wordings (again).

The specific situations are merely specific cases of the general "the ball leaves the lineout" (Law 19.9(b):

[LAWS]Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.

This includes the following:[/LAWS]

If the ball has been passed back by the lineout player to another player, peeling or not, the ball has surely left the lineout

 

[tim White]

If a maul has not formed then maul laws do not apply -that is why refs are asked to call 'use it' as the players in front of the ball carrier are obstructing. If there is no maul then 'non-maulers' can tackle the ball carrier at the rear of the 'non-maul'.

 

[DocY]

Thanks all! It sounds like there's (nearly) a consensus that players can come round and I was worrying over nothing!

 

[didds]

The specific situations are merely specific cases of the general "the ball leaves the lineout" (Law 19.9(b):

[LAWS]Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.

This includes the following:[/LAWS]

If the ball has been passed back by the lineout player to another player, peeling or not, the ball has surely left the lineout

In which case every driving maul from a lineout must be an immediate OK for the oppo backs to come up form theior 10m offside line. Which is clearly not what is refereed, so handing back must mean the bvall actually moves through space to unconnected/unbound players.


didds

 

[didds]

Thanks all! It sounds like there's (nearly) a consensus that players can come round and I was worrying over nothing!

I also thought there was a consensus that players can't come around until the non-maul had passed the line of touch?

didds

 

[ChrisR]

In which case every driving maul from a lineout must be an immediate OK for the oppo backs to come up form theior 10m offside line. Which is clearly not what is refereed, so handing back must mean the bvall actually moves through space to unconnected/unbound players.


didds

The issue is sequence of events.

If the ball is handed back and no maul forms then line-out is over.

If ball is handed back then ops join and a maul forms it gets to be tricky timing for the referee. Is it LO law or maul law?

If the maul forms then the ball goes back then LO law prevails.

 

[crossref]

In which case every driving maul from a lineout must be an immediate OK for the oppo backs to come up form theior 10m offside line. Which is clearly not what is refereed, so handing back must mean the bvall actually moves through space to unconnected/unbound players.


didds

A maul forming is dealt with the Laws as a special case

[LAWS]
(b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.1234
This includes the following:
When the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked out of the lineout, the lineout ends.
When the ball or a player carrying the ball moves into the area between the 5-metre line and the touchline, the lineout ends.
When a lineout player hands the ball to a player who is peeling off, the lineout ends.
When the ball is thrown beyond the 15-metre line, or when a player takes or puts it beyond that line, the lineout ends.
When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.
When the ball becomes unplayable in a lineout, the lineout ends. Play restarts with a scrum.[/LAWS]

In the situation in the OP, if the line out is NOT over then basically the situation is frozen for a second or so, until the USE IT command is obeyed .

The team not in poession chave just two choices
- contest directly, which will lead the referee to either declare a maul, or perhaps gain a scrum for accidental offside
- wait for the team in poessession to USE IT as commanded.

 

[RobLev]

In which case every driving maul from a lineout must be an immediate OK for the oppo backs to come up form theior 10m offside line. Which is clearly not what is refereed, so handing back must mean the bvall actually moves through space to unconnected/unbound players.


didds

Crossref has quoted the Law; which means that if the ball is handed back before the maul forms (ie before the defending side engages), then the lineout ends immediately; if however a maul forms and the ball is then handed back, the lineout continues (and relevant offside lines remain in place) until the maul carrying the ball moves off the LoT.

The OP expressly said that a maul had not formed.

 

[Shelflife]

What happens if the defending team dont engage (no maul formed ) and the ball is kept at the front ?

You could in theory have a stand off until one team cracks !

 

[ianh5979]

What happens if the defending team dont engage (no maul formed ) and the ball is kept at the front ?

You could in theory have a stand off until one team cracks !

If the ball is at the front they are entitled to move forward in my opinion. There is no obstruction as the player with the ball is available to be tackled

 

[DocY]

If the ball is at the front they are entitled to move forward in my opinion. There is no obstruction as the player with the ball is available to be tackled

Not just your opinion - I think someone quoted the clarification earlier that explicitly says this.

The first opposition player can go in to sack the ball carrier in the stand off case. I'd expect this to be the most likely outcome.

 

[didds]

If the ball is at the front they are entitled to move forward in my opinion. There is no obstruction as the player with the ball is available to be tackled

Shelflife's point is what happens if they don;t move at all.

Then there's a mexican standoff with the ball at the font but not being moved forward, and the defenders watching equally doing nothing.

(Unlikely I know

didds

 

[DocY]

Shelflife's point is what happens if they don;t move at all.Then there's a mexican standoff with the ball at the font but not being moved forward, and the defenders watching equally doing nothing.(Unlikely I know didds

Who gets pinged for time wasting?