Match Payments

[TheBFG]

I'll do it for £140

no disrespect mate but might be a little beyond your reffin ability just yet :wink:

 

[TheBFG]

Yes I do know many of the schools and which county/Society is involved (Somerzet is not of course a Home County :biggrin

I assume you refer to the B or S schools, not M which is 1st tier. The S school had an ex-England Grand Slam coach as DOR for some years.

Yep that's the one, coach there now is an ex Bath/Bristol player and it was he that contacted me to ask a few questions as there was some inconsistency with the refs they were getting!

 

[crossref]

I am wondering if there is an opportunity for someone to distintermediate this, and come up with an Uber style solution.

It would be easy to set up an online system, similar to Kabbee or Uber where
- clubs put up the games they need referees for, and referees put their hands up to do it.
- and ref advertise availability and clubs snap them up
- obviously there would be a match fee involved.
- just like Uber or Kabbee there would be quality controls and feeback in both directions

It would drive the Societies incandescent - I can hear Simon harrumphing now -


The thing is : it's cheap to set up, as it's all been done before, there are 1000s of systems out there that unite buyers and sellers of a service, with feedback / qa controls.

 

[Browner]

Yep that's the one, coach there now is an ex Bath/Bristol player and it was he that contacted me to ask a few questions as there was some inconsistency with the refs they were getting!

Next time charge him a consultancy fee, it will help lead the rugby community into recognising the value of our expert service !

 

[Shelflife]

This week I did a schools match, 240km round trip, left home at 11am and got back at approx 5.30pm. For that I will get about €75 (£60) for my troubles, not even a cup of tea or a sandwich offered.

I believe that our ref society appreciates the effort that we put in, I think that the IRFU are taking us for a ride, we pay €25 membership every year, for that we get socks, shorts ,jersey and tracksuit, not every year but its not exactly plentiful. We get an odd night out at our local clubs game and an odd pint at that.

We as refs provide a wonderful service, As Browner said, we give up our time on match days and also going to meetings,workshops and training usually on our own and reading law books and going online to sites such as this in order to deliver on the day. In return we get 31c (25p) a km and thats it. Some clubs appreciate you, most dont imo, some will make sure that your dressing room is clean, others use it as a store room and I have even seen the proverbial kitchen sink stored in a changing room.
Some will look after you and give you a bit of grub, some will hardly acknowledge you after the game esp if they lose.

If the refs were to pull their services for a few weeks the governing bodies would really see the time and effort put in by the refs and their associations.

Im not looking for payment, Id like if the travel expenses were upped to a fair level, id like if we could get equipment (flags,whistles,boots,cards,watches assoc shirts and ties) every so often as well. We are expected to provide as near a professional service without payment. Id also like the clubs to ensure that clean tidy dressing rooms and after match refreshments

I enjoy reffing, it shouldnt cost me money to provide others a service, all I want is to be made feel a little bit appreciated.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I'll do it for £140

250 mile round trip at 45 p per mile and a £38 match fee sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately until you get to a 7+1 grade with London you are unlikely to be appointed.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

This week I did a schools match, 240km round trip, left home at 11am and got back at approx 5.30pm. For that I will get about €75 (£60) for my troubles, not even a cup of tea or a sandwich offered.

I believe that our ref society appreciates the effort that we put in, I think that the IRFU are taking us for a ride, we pay €25 membership every year, for that we get socks, shorts ,jersey and tracksuit, not every year but its not exactly plentiful. We get an odd night out at our local clubs game and an odd pint at that.

We as refs provide a wonderful service, As Browner said, we give up our time on match days and also going to meetings,workshops and training usually on our own and reading law books and going online to sites such as this in order to deliver on the day. In return we get 31c (25p) a km and thats it. Some clubs appreciate you, most dont imo, some will make sure that your dressing room is clean, others use it as a store room and I have even seen the proverbial kitchen sink stored in a changing room.
Some will look after you and give you a bit of grub, some will hardly acknowledge you after the game esp if they lose.

If the refs were to pull their services for a few weeks the governing bodies would really see the time and effort put in by the refs and their associations.

Im not looking for payment, Id like if the travel expenses were upped to a fair level, id like if we could get equipment (flags,whistles,boots,cards,watches assoc shirts and ties) every so often as well. We are expected to provide as near a professional service without payment. Id also like the clubs to ensure that clean tidy dressing rooms and after match refreshments

I enjoy reffing, it shouldnt cost me money to provide others a service, all I want is to be made feel a little bit appreciated.

If I went more than a few weeks getting put in storeroom, not getting fed, not being bought a drink I'd be off.

Fortunately that sort of hospitality is not something I recognise in Yorkshire or elsewhere when I've ventured over the border.

We pay £10pa and have recently been provided with free shirts these last few years - previously we had to buy all our stuff.
Dress shirts, ties etc have to be purchased.

 

[crossref]

i am often in a refs changing room that looks like a storeroom!
rarely get referee showers -- normally showering with the players

but I almost always am offered a pint and something to eat after the game

 

[Simon Thomas]

I am wondering if there is an opportunity for someone to distintermediate this, and come up with an Uber style solution.

It would be easy to set up an online system, similar to Kabbee or Uber where
- clubs put up the games they need referees for, and referees put their hands up to do it.
- and ref advertise availability and clubs snap them up
- obviously there would be a match fee involved.
- just like Uber or Kabbee there would be quality controls and feeback in both directions

It would drive the Societies incandescent - I can hear Simon harrumphing now -


The thing is : it's cheap to set up, as it's all been done before, there are 1000s of systems out there that unite buyers and sellers of a service, with feedback / qa controls.

Certainly not harrumphing nor would Societies be incandescent.

There are already email clusters where "schools refs" are approached direct. So good idea but it has limited appeal I suggest. Also schools are only going to pay travel and a small fee (£10-15) for a non Society Referee for the 3rd XVs or U15s, and only then if there is no staff member or pupil to referee. We have 8 Young Officials who referee clubs on Sunday morning and schools mid week at u15, U14 etc - they are not appointed by the Society but we send mentors and advisers to watch them. In one case a 17 yr old is now doing School 1st XV at level 9 (not the top schools like PGS, KES, etc) as Society appointments and in the new year he will do his first adult match under very close supervision and we hope will develop fast, as we have had in the past with exceptional Young Officials.

It is the 1st XV matches where the grade level usually means a Society appointment is required (except for ex elite refs for hire) or for the U18 and U15 national schools cups where it is a comp regulation.

Appointing to Schools on mid-week and Saturday's can be a nightmare with a conflict with BUCS matches on Wed and adult league on Sat. We do appoint high grade refs as these players are the future of the Game, and we are especially supportive of state schools and those who have recently introduced rugby working with RDO and local club youth sections.

At the lower school ages it is often a "club ref", or an internal referee. Hampshire Society and HRFU have worked hard with our leading Rugby schools to get them to hold ELRA (now Level2 referee) courses and develop staff and pupil referees. In fact Jonnie Wilkinson's alma mater Lord Wandsworth recently received a RFU award for the work they have done. this and working with the RDO, RFU Training staff, and the Society are crucial to ensure quality standards, the latest information is available, etc.

If you have independent refs doing their own thing they could fall behind the performance curves and get into bad habits, etc. Even with Society Refs there is inconsistency as BFG hilighted. With the crossref uber type service who managed it, who checks quality standards, etc ?

 

[Simon Thomas]

i am often in a refs changing room that looks like a storeroom!
rarely get referee showers -- normally showering with the players

but I almost always am offered a pint and something to eat after the game

In Hampshire it is varied - most schools invite the referee for tea and sandwiches which are laid on, others just say "thank you sir". I have never been given a beer at a school match.

As for changing and showering, our adult referees are 100% segregated, or if not available, we arrive and leave in track suit with much muttering, and subsequent emails - but some state schools just do not have the facilities. The Society, HRFU, and as hole. Union are fully integrated (current HRFU Prez is a Society Referee/MO and immediate past Chairman of Schools RFU). Child Welfare is paramount and strictly applied in all our schools and youth sections of clubs.

 

[crossref]

With the crossref uber type service who managed it, who checks quality standards, etc ?

Well, I think similar to Uber or Check-a-trade they do QA in three basic ways.
1- where a provider wants to claiming an actual qualification they check it (ELRA certificate, minicab license)
2- objective measurable statistics to build credibility (time on site, number of trips, jobs, reliability rating (did they turn up?) )
3- subjective feedback ratings, in both directions. passengers rate drivers, drivers rate passengers

What would be needed centrally is a reliable way to grade the games, so that the operators of get-a-ref could form a picture of the level of games the ref is operating at, and assess the feedback accordingly -- so that you could see a reg is getitng an average 4* rating at level 8 games.

Of course none of this is problem free (but neither is the current system viz the variation in LSRFUR refs supplid to the school) but we know from Uber, Air BnB and the like a feedback based system does work.

What it does need is volume though. There may not be enough games/refs for it get going and be sustainable. In fact I am certain there isn't.

 

[Bunniksider]

.....I have never been given a beer at a school match......

You get a beer at Rossall School in Lancashire. Well you did in the 80's (I was a player then not a ref.) Highlight of the year for the lower 6th

 

[dave_clark]

In Hampshire it is varied - most schools invite the referee for tea and sandwiches which are laid on, others just say "thank you sir". I have never been given a beer at a school match.

As for changing and showering, our adult referees are 100% segregated, or if not available, we arrive and leave in track suit with much muttering, and subsequent emails - but some state schools just do not have the facilities. The Society, HRFU, and as hole. Union are fully integrated (current HRFU Prez is a Society Referee/MO and immediate past Chairman of Schools RFU). Child Welfare is paramount and strictly applied in all our schools and youth sections of clubs.

not sure if crossref was referring to school games when he said he showers with the players!

(although appreciate this is in the U13 - U19 section)

 

[Browner]

250 mile round trip at 45 p per mile and a £38 match fee sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately until you get to a 7+1 grade with London you are unlikely to be appointed.

Is petrol more expensive depending on region ??

 

[crossref]

not sure if crossref was referring to school games when he said he showers with the players!

(although appreciate this is in the U13 - U19 section)

oops!
No, I had forgotten that - for some reason - this is in the u13-u19 section!!

No, of course, when I'm refereeing on a Sunday morning I am always prepared for the likelihood of not getting a shower for that reason. Even at my own club, which I love, we have no referee's shower so on a Sunday game it's quick spray of Sure Extra Dry, change shirt, tracksuit on, into the bar. At least I get to the bar quickly

We do have a ref changing room, and it's usually free of junk. It's actually too small for junk !

 

[Browner]

We pay £10pa and have recently been provided with free shirts these last few years - previously we had to buy all our stuff.
Dress shirts, ties etc have to be purchased.

Conceptually, why should any fee be payable by any referee? ( if it secures membership then a nominal amount)

Why shouldnt all costs of running a 'bank of referees' should be borne by the Users or the RFU

" Dear Browner,
Congratulations on becoming a Qualified referee, here is your badge & License. Included in this box is all the equipment you will need to represent the RFU in facilitating the grassroots game, in simple terms without independent and fair minded referees this sport ceases to exist. We need mass participation at clubs to drive ticket sales and all the commercial revenues that emanate from this involvement, and providing referees to even the lowest level club or juniors helps the RFU gain such huge penetration.

You will find an order sheet for your RFU badged 'Referee attire' set, send it back and the RFU will ensure you look the as professional as the Pro's on the TV.
Waterproof, Tracksuit, Shirt-Shorts-Socksx2, Multi functional watch, whistle, cards, scorepad, flags, Waterproof folder containing RFU regs, water bottle etc...if you genuinely need it then we will ensure you have it!

Also enclosed is the scale of referee fees, you will note that they increase upwards as you climb the refereeing ladder towards eventual full time professional , the reason for this incremental scaling is because the RFU recognises the increased effort and commitment toward training/coaching and personal fitness that referees make. Your progress upward orc downward will be managed by a dedicated team of assessors/match observers etc.

Please review the enclosed document that maps the pathway to the professional game, both in terms of refereeing but also TMO & citing roles, as you can see many opportunities exist in this modern and expanding professional ' officiating' code.

Don't concern yourself on how clubs will afford these costs, not only do they not have a choice ( at u14 or above ) but the RFU Employees (via RDOs) have a detailed suite of income raising suggestions to give any club concerned at how to pay for the referee services that societies provide. We have introduced a feedback system to allow referees to rate all the hosting experiences of the clubs they visit, we will publish the whole league table to highlight both 'brilliant ' or dire performers, in order to drive up standards generally.

In short, we are demonstrating the commitment and value that the referees bring to this sport , this is the most significant part of our Legacy 2015 campaign, Aspire to be as good as you can, thank you for rising to the challenge of this immensly complicated yet immensly enjoyable sport.

Welcome to 'Team England' Browner !

R.Hon Ernie Fortune
CEO, President & Lions Tourist etc ...
RFU
(Formerly a volunteer referee & administrator, ie... before the game turned professional)
Po Corporate Box no . 1FABCHAP, RFUHQ. Twickers.

 

[Phil E]

I have never been given a beer at a school match.

You obviously didn't go to a good school :wink:

Warwick School, Rugby School, beer and a curry after the game.
King Edwards, King Henry's, tea and maybe cake.
All the rest........seeya!

 

[TheBFG]

I have never been given a beer at a school match.

I've a school match on Saturday, there will be beer afterwards :wink: that said most of the school matches I've done there is always a beer to be had, the teachers pinch it from the 6th form common room fridge!

 

[crossref]

Conceptually, why should any fee be payable by any referee? ( if it secures membership then a nominal amount)

(I didn't read the rest - too long!)

At the grass roots level the conceptual argument is that all the players are paying to play, and buy lots of their own kit, why shouldn't the referee, really.

At a kids clb game all the first aiders, coaches, team managers etc are voluntering their time to give the kids a game of rugby. why should the referee alone be paid.

Of course at the pro level, or at a top tier private schools it's the other way round, why should the ref be the only person NOT being paid.

and there's a difficult middle ground.

 

[SimonSmith]

Beer at the Leys. At least there was in 1997