Match Payments

FlipFlop


Referees in Switzerland
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
3,227
Post Likes
226
We get a match fee (depends on level - from 40-100 CHF (40$-100$: £30-£70)). We also get expenses (0.50CHF / km = £0.55/mile).

Sounds good.

Now we are also (and this has been vocalised) considered by many to be employees of the union. So when licences need to be checked (face-face checks), we need to do, when more admin is created, "its okay - the refs can do it". When clubs have issues with the union - they sound off to us. When ........... (you get the idea).

To be honest I would give up all the payments, get my actual expenses paid, and get rid of all the admin and cr@p that comes with it. So be careful what comes attached to what you wish for....
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,815
Post Likes
1,008
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I was stood talking to a player on Saturday when his club's blazer approached with my expenses.

"How much do you want sir?"
"£20 please and you can pay for my raffle ticket and a I'll have a pint of Bombadier :wink:" said I - 60 miles round trip.
"By jove" said the player - except he didin't jove -"is that all you get?"
I explained it was for the mileage. He thought (and I suspect he is not alone) we got a lot more than that.
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,125
Post Likes
2,385
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
The ticket items for me-
1) We probably all agree that whether you get paid or not, you wouldn't referee unless you enjoyed it. You won't start refereeing or stay refereeing if you hate it...even if you're paid well.

That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).
 

leaguerefaus


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
1,009
Post Likes
248
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).

Also, people will start reffing for the money and THEN find out if they enjoy it or not. Happens with a fair few players here.
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,657
Post Likes
633
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).

Also, people will start reffing for the money and THEN find out if they enjoy it or not. Happens with a fair few players here.

And if out of those bunch you get a handful of really good referees then it's a good thing otherwise you may never had recruited them. I think the risk to recruit more refs is a good thing.
And if those that do it just for the cash are hopeless will not advance up the leagues/levels (and we hope to implement a sliding scale as incentive to be assessed and move up levels ).

There is no right or wrong in this. But IMO we should allow those that want it to have it (to offset their own costs), and those that don't want the money on principle or otherwise can donate it to their society to assist with development or other uses. Win - win.
 
Last edited:

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.
 

TheBFG


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
4,392
Post Likes
237
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.

as you know we have one of these "top tier" schools on our patch, they get charged standard L6 rates for refs, although this season the "federation" has been taking some of their matches as a group stepping stone.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.

I know of one club that paid all its club-refs £20 a game, at least for a while, to encourage members to become refs.

I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,815
Post Likes
1,008
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.

Perhaps lots of paters and maters had suggested to the Head that if Oscar/Henry/Tarquin etc don't start seeing some Rugby success for their £30,000pa plus add-ons they may consider moving to another school?? Allegedly! :biggrin:
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.

This reminds me of the pre 'open game' era, where money was floating through the sport 'unofficially' and ' boot money' existed etc.....
I suspect these examples are the tip of this particular iceberg.

I don't buy the " expectation of performance " of referees will make a difference....... It will still be commensurate with level, if a University/ school/ club want L2 ref, then they are free to request one (at the appropriate fee) and if there is a L2 referee available then they can have him . If there isn't then the get the level (and fee) appropropriate to the level of the referee supplied. When a society appoints - the club 'have no alternative other than to accept the appointment' .....that's it - league rules say independant & that's it....... What practicable alternative would exist?..none.

You get what you pay for, at the moment they should get me simply turning up, instead they get a diligent Law applying , self studying, trained, assessed , fair minded , management skilled , multi skilled practicioner .

When RFU introduced big screen/ TMO use, clubs simply had to find the revenue to supply the technology, and they did.... If the RFU decreed tomorrow that post pads needed to be 450mm thick, then all clubs would find the money to buy them, because otherwise there wouldn't be a game ( nor a bar, nor a club focus cos a rugby club without rugby is merely a social club ) - its quite simple really, supply and demand.

Payment could well increase the amount of self study that a referee does, he might improve in all the areas Law/study/fitness etc .... Users can't go to another supplier, there is no other supplier of this skill/resource.
 
Last edited:

FlipFlop


Referees in Switzerland
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
3,227
Post Likes
226
It will still be commensurate with level, if a University/ school/ club want L2 ref, then they are free to request one (at the appropriate fee) and if there is a L2 referee available then they can have him . If there isn't then the get the level (and fee) appropropriate to the level of the referee supplied.

I would hope the fee is connected to the level of the game, and not referee? So they should not be able to ask for a L2 referee. The Society will appoint an appropriate level referee, who will be paid on the basis of the level of the game.

That is what happens here. It is the level of the game that decides the fee, so a top level referee doing a low level game, gets paid the same as a low level referee doing the same game.
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
as you know we have one of these "top tier" schools on our patch, they get charged standard L6 rates for refs, although this season the "federation" has been taking some of their matches as a group stepping stone.

I said "some" and indeed that does not include a school in Street who use The oldest Society in the world's or your Federation's L6s. It is only one such referee at I know of, and he has done it for four or five seasons at two or three schools for their big annual fixtures.
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
I know of one club that paid all its club-refs £20 a game, at least for a while, to encourage members to become refs.

I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.

Interesting about the club paying £20 per match for expenses. I hope it is expenses or there are potential tax implications.

For these high profile schools matches where most players are Academy, international or regional squads, the school never request a Society Referee, so one is never appointed. They go direct to Mr R at the start of the season.
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
Perhaps lots of paters and maters had suggested to the Head that if Oscar/Henry/Tarquin etc don't start seeing some Rugby success for their £30,000pa plus add-ons they may consider moving to another school?? Allegedly! :biggrin:

Not really how it works these days.

These schools are connected to the Premiership Academies, have sports scholarship for elite performers, have long traditions of top tier rugby and well paid DOR and coaches on the staff.

These schools are graded at L5 or 6 usually, so normal Society appointments are not applicable anyway in many counties.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,815
Post Likes
1,008
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Not really how it works these days.

These schools are connected to the Premiership Academies, have sports scholarship for elite performers, have long traditions of top tier rugby and well paid DOR and coaches on the staff.

These schools are graded at L5 or 6 usually, so normal Society appointments are not applicable anyway in many counties.

You're no fun!

Cheers Simon :biggrin:
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
Interesting about the club paying £20 per match for expenses. I hope it is expenses or there are potential tax implications.

For these high profile schools matches where most players are Academy, international or regional squads, the school never request a Society Referee, so one is never appointed. They go direct to Mr R at the start of the season.

if the schools are doing this collectively I don't have a problem with it -- Isn't it similar to the way the premiership works, collectively don't the teams select the panel of refs, and pay them (?) Or perhaps not.

Anyway if its a collective thing I am OK with it, if the ref is working for one school, then it doesn't seem right, there's an obvious conflict of interest.
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
if the schools are doing this collectively I don't have a problem with it -- Isn't it similar to the way the premiership works, collectively don't the teams select the panel of refs, and pay them (?) Or perhaps not.

Anyway if its a collective thing I am OK with it, if the ref is working for one school, then it doesn't seem right, there's an obvious conflict of interest.

The top tier schools request L5 or L6 "in test from Group" or even sometimes a Panel Ref from RFU.

The majority of matches being L6 and below, most at L8, will go to their local Society, except some in Home Counties where some schools still use London Society for historical reasons.

As I said in some cases some schools go to an ex Elite referee (in the cases I know about but there may be others) for 1st XV special matches.

No it is not how the Premiership works, the RFU are contracted to provide a safe and competent panel of elite referees, and they select, train, assess and develop those referees. The PRL have no vote or influence on selection that I am aware of.
 

TheBFG


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
4,392
Post Likes
237
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
, except some in Home Counties where some schools still use London Society for historical reasons.

an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)

I'll do it for £140
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)

Yes I do know many of the schools and which county/Society is involved (Somerzet is not of course a Home County :biggrin:)

I assume you refer to the B or S schools, not M which is 1st tier. The S school had an ex-England Grand Slam coach as DOR for some years.
 
Top