Missed the social

[woody]

I really did want to make it to the social, but maybe it's better that I couldn't stick around. At least on the field, not a bad team. Hopefully this isn't the end for them.

http://www.lex18.com/news/eku-men-s-rugby-team-suspended-after-hazing-allegation-307508/

 

[Taff]

Hazing: The practice of rituals and other activities involving harassment, abuse or humiliation used as a way of initiating a person into a group. Hazing is seen in many different types of social groups, including in gangs, sports teams, schools, military units, workplaces and fraternities. ... Hazing is often prohibited by law and may comprise either physical (possibly violent) or psychological abuse. It may also include nudity or sexually oriented activities.

Personally I don't see the harm provided it doesn't become abuse. My boy went through a form of "hazing" when he joined an Youth side. Some of them were legendary, and they still talk about them years later. There was no pain; only mild humiliation and loads of laughs - which is the whole point surely.

 

[Simon Thomas]

what a wonderful over-reaction in Kentucky and I love the quaint term 'hazing'.

it all reminds me to watch Animal House again and enjoy the exploits of the boys of Delta Tau Chi (ΔΤΧ)

 

[Davet]

There's hazing and there's hazing.

Most societies in the past, and indeed the present have initiation rites marking a transition, eg boyhood to manhood, menarch, essentially about the membership of a group; you name it you can almost certainly find a rite for it.

Ritual is itself an important social bonding process.

To ban an organisation simply because they have some for of transition ritual, when it is entirely unclear what that ritual actually is seems an odd reaction, possibly motivated by an ideological stance rather than a rational one.


If the new member is not humiliated beyond a very minor level, is not physically abused and is not forced to do something to which they are strongly opposed (eg make a veggie eat a raw beefsteak) then I think judgement needs to me used.

If this is simply a case that ANY initiation ritual is banned then it is, in my view, a wholly mistaken stance. If they would supply more detail of what it was that was alleged then we may be able to make a more informed judgement.

 

[Taff]

... Ritual is itself an important social bonding process.

Exactly. I still laugh when I hear what some of my boys mates did. If they live to be a hundred, they'll still laugh about it; its what helps build a team IMO.

... To ban an organisation simply because they have some for of transition ritual, when it is entirely unclear what that ritual actually is seems an odd reaction, possibly motivated by an ideological stance rather than a rational one.

Eloquently put Davet. :clap:

By the sounds of it, it isn't just the organisation that's banned, it seems to be the act itself. Perhaps our friends across the pond are over-sensitive about it.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

The Sports Union at my son's University have banned "initiation stuff" and the RU club is in the spotlight. They used to play pub golf etc. (don't know the rules) but that is no more. Most stuff revolved around drinking.

 

[crossref]

initiation rights are for the purpose of making sure the club remains solely for 'people like us', and are exclusive by nature.

in a club, well, that's probably OK. If club A revolves around drinking and pushin coins up your foreskin, then a prospective player who doesn't fancy that can easily go join club B down the road.

in a university or a school it's different.. there is only one club. And then it really beholden on the club to welcome everyone who wants to play rugby ... even if they don't drink --- or whatever. So it's right that initiations should be banned there.

 

[woody]

Unfortunately some of these rituals have gone too far. The extreme came last year when a band member for Florida A&M was beaten to death in their ritual. Just on Tuesday, one of his band mates recieved his sentance of probation and community service. More common is alcohol poisoning. Last month a student at Univerity of Tennessee (relatively close to EKU) was admitted to the hospital for alcohol poisoning after butt chugging alcohol.

These extreme cases have led universities to take "zero-tolerance" policies to try and avoid being sued themselves [skipping rant about the lunancy of the legal system]. In EKU's case, I'm curious to learn what the complaint is. Was it something like a zulu run or more heinous?

 

[Dixie]

initiation rights are for the purpose of making sure the club remains solely for 'people like us', and are exclusive by nature.

To a point (and how would you know anyway - we were all told not to include you in the communications! :wink. That is spot on when membership of the group is dependent upon successfully completing the unpleasant task (such as the Mothers' Union). But in the case of a sports club, the far more likely scenario is that the option of completing the task is only offered to people who are already members of the club. The tasks are there to forge team bonding etc, but anyone who declines to take part (whether for religious reasons, an overdose of common sense, or whatever) remains part of the club, and part of the team - though they may not be party to some of the most juicy emails thereafter.

For the record, I'm no fan of initiation ceremonies, but can see their place in a group of like-minded individuals. My club's mini-midi tour traditionally requires rookie tourists (of whatever age, parents included) to dress in drag for the duration and sing a song to the group. This is relatively harmless, and has the upside that everyone knows who the rookies are, so can make a point of including them in activities or groups; and also that once the song is over, other tour activities seem pretty undaunting. I never liked or approved of this, but was unable to get sufficiently outraged to either prevent it or to stand aloof from it.

 

[Davet]

In todays modern world then sending a 13 year old out into the jungle alone with a single spear to kill a lion may not pass 'elf 'n' safety requirements, but a Bar Mitzva does.

Both are initiation rites.

Clearly some form of sanity check is required but banning initiation rites per se is ba bit silly.

 

[crossref]

yes, and of course I have taken part in many such things myself - experiencing varying degrees of unpleasanness and varying amounts of fun.

but the heart of your post is the key bit --

but can see their place in a group of like-minded individuals

that's the point: do you have to be like-minded to be in the rugby team? do you expect people to be like-minded ? or do you just want to people who are good at rugby.

Out in the wide world it's absolutely fine to have a club for like-minded rugby players. Indeed it's firmly in our rugby culture -- London Irish, Old Fogbottomains, The White Swan Bulldogs. There are plenty of clubs, if this club doesn't suit, find one that does. Some clubs will have an agreeable culture and find many like-minded people. Others will struggle.

But at university it's different.

There's only one rugby club. Should it be trying to attrac the best rugby players? Or is just a club for like-minded rugby players?
I think a university club needs to be more inclusive.
In fact it's university clubs where you're likely to find the very worst of these rituals.

It's not good....

 

[Davet]

If it forges social bonds then that is to the clubs advantage, rugby is a tream game and people who are well bonded together tend to form a better team than those who aren't - these bonds will be forged anyway, infomally - and possibly by the establsihement of cliques withn the club as a whole - which I see as probably more damaging all round. So long as the rite is not forced, and ideally with a few options avilable to suit all sorts; and very clearly it is not abusive or illegal, then I don't see a problem.

 

[Taff]

.... that's the point: do you have to be like-minded to be in the rugby team? do you expect people to be like-minded ? or do you just want to people who are good at rugby.

Both.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

after butt chugging alcohol.

Is that what it sounds like?

 

[Dixie]

Is that what it sounds like?

A beerium enema!

 

[crossref]

Both.

.... hence the hazing.

 

[Toby Warren]

A beerium enema!

Bravo! :clap:

 

[smeagol]

Is that what it sounds like?

Yes, except it was a box of Franzia wine.

I'll echo Woody's comment that in the US, a number of hazing incidents have made headlines. I have nothing against hazing, and went through such a ritual, but when it's a) at a college and b) involves underage drinking, there will always be the risk of getting caught.

As for zulus, my old collegiate club got in some hot water for a zulu. After that, we just had them involve procuring intimate apparel at an apartment complex while in the buff.