New Front Row logic tree

[Arabcheif]

I played in a match earlier this season. Team I was playing against had prop injured. He went off, they didn't have a replacement FR. They went down to 14 players and we went uncontested. If a team doesn't have FR replacement, the game goes ahead, then if 1,2 or 3 have to go off they go down to 14 players, even if there's non-FR replacements. I believe a match report is then sent to the Comp Org. They then deal with any repeat offenders.

Thinks it's a good way of dealing with it.

 

[Pinky]

I think, technically, if you turn up with no FR replacements you lose the game before you start

I think that is unlikely, but there may be competition regs that effectively do this. AIU under law 3, if you don't have FR replacements you don't get any replacements at all, but there is nothing in law to say that not having FR replacements means that you can't play a whole game with your 15!

 

[Pinky]

PDF does not cover blood replacements, which actually would be one reason why you might go back to contested. So second requirement for a prop (blood replacement) and no prop available, AIU your replacement hooker (if on the bench) would come on and you would be uncontested. Once stitched up the prop can come back on, one of the hookers go off, and yo are back to contested scrums. I think you could also bring on another player if you had no FR available.

 

[Phil E]

PDF does not cover blood replacements,

There is no blood replacement with interchanges.

This is from the Staffordshire Leagues regulations:

8. Uncontested Scrums:
a. Before a game commences, if there is a shortage of front row players, the game starts with uncontested scrums. Should a team unable to field a front row win the match they will receive 2 POINTS MAXIMUM. Should the team with a full front row win they will be awarded four points. The losing side will receive ONE point.
b. If due to injury a game goes into uncontested scrums after the start, normal rules apply, winners take FOUR points, losers take ONE point.
c. A draw in a game with uncontested scrums from the start: TWO points for the side starting with a full front row, ONE point for the side unable to provide a full starting front row.
d. All games involved in uncontested scrums MUST be reported to the league/merit table secretary along with the result.

 

[Flish]

I think that is unlikely, but there may be competition regs that effectively do this. AIU under law 3, if you don't have FR replacements you don't get any replacements at all, but there is nothing in law to say that not having FR replacements means that you can't play a whole game with your 15!

Which happens regularly, the lose before you start *may* have been a cup regulation, can't remember, oddly enough no one owns up to it, which kinda defeats the safety aspect of it all :-I(

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

in experience then... do you guys find that teams that cant start with a FR replacement just cry off? Or do their oppo cry off as they now have "the win" and need not risk injury in what woud be a friendly in effect?

Or do you find that teams nominate a FR replacement but if they are ever called on they develop an injury so they cant now play and have to be subbed off for a non FR bencher (or is that what man off is all about - he elaves and its 14 man). in effect the FR noinated replcement cant play FR but this way they avoid the "loss" and in fact are gambling they wont get called upon?

didds

didds

In my area, most teams gamble that a FR replacement won't be necessary.
Everyone wants a competitive scrum and with some empathy from ref and opposition we can usually get a game for at least 60 mins so the regs guys don't have to be involved ;-)

 

[crossref]

in experience then... do you guys find that teams that cant start with a FR replacement just cry off? Or do their oppo cry off as they now have "the win" and need not risk injury in what woud be a friendly in effect?

Or do you find that teams nominate a FR replacement but if they are ever called on they develop an injury so they cant now play and have to be subbed off for a non FR bencher (or is that what man off is all about - he elaves and its 14 man). in effect the FR noinated replcement cant play FR but this way they avoid the "loss" and in fact are gambling they wont get called upon?

didds

didds

You are thinking like a coach :wink:

 

[crossref]

PDF does not cover blood replacements, which actually would be one reason why you might go back to contested. So second requirement for a prop (blood replacement) and no prop available, AIU your replacement hooker (if on the bench) would come on and you would be uncontested. Once stitched up the prop can come back on, one of the hookers go off, and yo are back to contested scrums. I think you could also bring on another player if you had no FR available.

I think this is covered by the flow chart , sort of, as it's an example of an injury that the player can legitimately recover from and rejoin the pitch .

So you would be at 14 players, uncontested, until the bleeding stopped, and then you resume with 15 and contested again .

 

[didds]

You are thinking like a coach :wink:

well, maybe Not that I'd EVER condone such a situation, though also i suppose when I was coaching seniors I was still registered as a player and in such situations was down as a the FR replacement on the bench (and on occassion played as such) ... but it strikes me as an unfortunate by product of such regulations...

the option for team X to lose before they even leave home leaves them in effect having a choice of

* playing a friendly
* pretending to have a FR replacement with an inmediate injury scenario
* not bothering (eg avoding travel, or possible inuries).

The FR replacement could of course be another starter eg flanker. The danger being they get injured before the FR replacement is called for!

didds

 

[TheBFG]

One of the new parts I notice, is the "Head Injury" (recognise and remove) uncontested play with 15. Is this if the team medic/physio takes a player off or if the ref orders a player off, or both?

 

[Phil E]

One of the new parts I notice, is the "Head Injury" (recognise and remove) uncontested play with 15. Is this if the team medic/physio takes a player off or if the ref orders a player off, or both?

I would say both.

 

[crossref]

In the community game, wherever man off applies , I would expect that all front row players leaving the pitch for injury will be recorded as a suspected head injury, in order to maintain 15 players on the pitch. Why wouldn't you?

This whole system , with all the exceptions that may or may not apply, is far too complicated. Man off shouldn't be used in the community game anyway, where it's silly to have players standing on the sideline who want to play rugby, but only 14 of them allowed on the pitch

Let them play...

 

[Arabcheif]

In the community game, wherever man off applies , I would expect that all front row players leaving the pitch for injury will be recorded as a suspected head injury, in order to maintain 15 players on the pitch. Why wouldn't you?

This whole system , with all the exceptions that may or may not apply, is far too complicated. Man off shouldn't be used in the community game anyway, where it's silly to have players standing on the sideline who want to play rugby, but only 14 of them allowed on the pitch

Let them play...

@Crossref, this may shock you. I absolutely, 100%, wholeheartedly agree with you. Absolutely love this comment.

 

[Phil E]

In the community game, wherever man off applies , I would expect that all front row players leaving the pitch for injury will be recorded as a suspected head injury, in order to maintain 15 players on the pitch. Why wouldn't you?

Because you are getting absolutely stuffed in the scrums on a wet shitty day, and are quite happy to go a man down if you can have uncontested scrums?

 

[crossref]

Because you are getting absolutely stuffed in the scrums on a wet shitty day, and are quite happy to go a man down if you can have uncontested scrums?

Phil , you are missing the point. If you go off for a *head injury* then you don't go man off, you stay at 15 uncontested
(Refer to flow chart)

 

[Phil E]

That's a bit hard to sell when he's holding his leg/arm/back?

 

[crossref]

That's a bit hard to sell when he's holding his leg/arm/back?

Well, if someone tells me there is a suspected head injury I am going to take that at face value.

 

[menace]

This whole system , with all the exceptions that may or may not apply, is far too complicated. Man off shouldn't be used in the community game anyway, where it's silly to have players standing on the sideline who want to play rugby, but only 14 of them allowed on the pitch

Let them play...

While notionally i agree - didnt the man off rules pretty much eminate from the community level too particularly to prevent a side feigning a FR injury because they are getting pumped in the scrum yet they get to go uncontested AND keep 15 (ie they will win all their scrums).

The reality is under the new replacment rules that allows a substituted FR player to come back on to maintain contested scrums will mean the man off rule should hardly ever need to apply (if you bring at least a couple spare FR to the game and they dont all get injured!)

 

[crossref]

While notionally i agree - didnt the man off rules pretty much eminate from the community level too particularly to prevent a side feigning a FR injury because they are getting pumped in the scrum yet they get to go uncontested AND keep 15 (ie they will win all their scrums).

The reality is under the new replacment rules that allows a substituted FR player to come back on to maintain contested scrums will mean the man off rule should hardly ever need to apply (if you bring at least a couple spare FR to the game and they dont all get injured!)

By all means have a penalty for going uncontested. One league I ref in its 10 points.

But not man off. It's a community game, the aim is to have as many people playing as possible.

And personally I think it's the pro game who feign injury for tactical reasons. In the games I ref if any captain asked a prop to feign injury and leave the pitch so that scrums could be uncontested, he would be told where to put that idea. Players want to play , even if they are getting pumped

 

[menace]

By all means have a penalty for going uncontested. One league I ref in its 10 points.

But not man off. It's a community game, the aim is to have as many people playing as possible.

And personally I think it's the pro game who feign injury for tactical reasons. In the games I ref if any captain asked a prop to feign injury and leave the pitch so that scrums could be uncontested, he would be told where to put that idea. Players want to play , even if they are getting pumped

Again...I partially agree.

In these parts it was actually the players/teams asking for a man off rule if a team couldnt/wouldn't contest scrums. Im just saying dont lay the entire blame for the law at the foot of the "suites behind desks".
I think youre a little niave to think all community level teams just want to play....they want to win their cup too. Not all community teams play for shIts and giggles.
Im not sayings it's right just pointing out the reality.