[Golden Oldies] Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

Ian_Cook


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Agree, one of the best articles I have seen on the matter

I agree with most, but not all of what he says.

I still don't think that anyone should be entitled to hide behind ANY kind of belief system, be it religious belief, or personal belief, or political belief, and use it as a shield to vilify or attack protected minorities with impunity.

Individuals with strongly held beliefs might have rights to express their beliefs, but they are not the only ones with rights. Protected minorities have a right to go about their lives without being in the firing line, companies have a right to protect their good names, and brands have a right to protect their interests.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...free-speech-simon-longstaff-analysis/11245082

In order to broaden the debate, let's consider the case of a Christian who believes that the Pope is the Antichrist and that Roman Catholics are all destined for Hell. Such views are not "hypothetical". They were openly held by the Northern Ireland religious and political leader, the Reverend Ian Paisley.

In 1958, he condemned Princess Margaret and the Queen Mother for "committing spiritual fornication and adultery with the Antichrist" after they met with Pope John XXIII. Thirty years later, Paisley denounced Pope John Paul II as the Antichrist — to his face — while the latter addressed the European Union Parliament.


Now suppose an employee is of a mind similar to Paisley — so publishes a tweet attacking the head of the Catholic Church and all of its adherents in equivalent terms. Suppose the employee does so on the basis of what he considers to be a well-founded and sincere religious belief. However, in this case, it's not just a vulnerable minority group who's affected — but more than a billion Roman Catholics and their immensely wealthy and powerful church.

Let's suppose that the "Paisleyite" employee is a prominent brand ambassador working for a major bank. After the tweet, all hell breaks loose. Upset employees threaten to resign, customers threaten to close their accounts, investors begin to dump the stock, etc.


Would an employer be justified in calling such a person to account? Or should the bank respect the expression of sincere, religious belief and defend the right of the brand ambassador to express such views — no matter what damage is done?


It seems reasonable that employers be free to take steps to protect themselves from the kind of strategic risk caused by well-intentioned, loose cannons like the hypothetical brand ambassador sketched above. This should allow employers to put in place measures designed to protect their interests — and then ask their employees to act accordingly.

 
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TigerCraig


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I agree with most, but not all of what he says.

I still don't think that anyone should be entitled to hide behind ANY kind of belief system, be it religious belief, or personal belief, or political belief, and use it as a shield to vilify or attack protected minorities with impunity.

Individuals with strongly held beliefs might have rights to express their beliefs, but they are not the only ones with rights. Protected minorities have a right to go about their lives without being in the firing line, companies have a right to protect their good names, and brands have a right to protect their interests.


[/TEXTAREA]

I agree with you also to an extent. I still don't see as what IF did as "vilifying" or "attacking", but understand that some people might.
 

Ian_Cook


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Agree, one of the best articles I have seen on the matter

I agree with you also to an extent. I still don't see as what IF did as "vilifying" or "attacking", but understand that some people might.

I think we have all been taught and have accepted, haven't we, that if the target feels vilified, then that is vilification, even if others don't see it as such. There have been quite a number of gay Christian young men who were very upset by Folau's comments, and felt personally attacked by him.

I am personally acquainted with one local lad who I have known for many years. He is a Christian, a rugby fan and a keen and accomplished horse rider (and a very talented artist), and he came out to his parents and friends last Christmas (his parents and closest friends had already worked it out, and I suspected it). When I talked to him about the Folau thing a few weeks ago, I could clearly see that he was visibly upset. Hell exists for him, and threats that he will end up there are very real.

Of course, being an atheist, I find this difficult to relate to, but I don't find it at all difficult to accept that he thinks its real.
 
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Dickie E


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I think we have all been taught and have accepted, haven't we, that if the target feels vilified, then that is vilification, even if others don't see it as such.

No, there are specific tests for vilification that must be met.

When I talked to him about the Folau thing a few weeks ago, I could clearly see that he was visibly upset.

maybe he was upset cos you keep picking the scab off
 
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Ian_Cook


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No, there are specific tests for vilification that must be met.

Law reference for that!


maybe he was upset cos you keep picking the scab off

How would you fucking know? You don't know him, and you don't know me.

Keep your unbridled speculation to yourself!
 

TigerCraig


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Law reference for that!




How would you fucking know? You don't know him, and you don't know me.

Keep your unbridled speculation to yourself!

I think there us a clear difference between "gays are evil and deserve to go to hell" and *my interpretation of the bible sees practicing homosexuality like manner other things as a sin and all sinners who do not accept Jesus will go to hell"
 

crossref


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I think there us a clear difference between "gays are evil and deserve to go to hell" and *my interpretation of the bible sees practicing homosexuality like manner other things as a sin and all sinners who do not accept Jesus will go to hell"

No, they are one and the same thing.

If you think someone is destined for hell, you also believe they deserve it. (Otherwise you would be believing in a God who sent people to hell even though they didn't deserve it)
 

TigerCraig


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No, they are one and the same thing.

If you think someone is destined for hell, you also believe they deserve it. (Otherwise you would be believing in a God who sent people to hell even though they didn't deserve it)

By his belief EVERYONE is destined for hell. Only those who repent their sins and come to Jesus wont go there
 

crossref


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By his belief EVERYONE is destined for hell. Only those who repent their sins and come to Jesus wont go there

Indeed, and he believes that they all deserve it.

(his only alternative would be that his God sends people to hell who don't deserve it....)

(This is actually fundamental and well known problem for Christian theology)
 

Ian_Cook


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Hah, that's funny. Did you actually read that link before you posted it

What does the law say about vilification?

In NSW it is generally against the law to vilify people because of their:

  • race, colour, nationality, descent, ethnic, ethno-religious or national origin
  • homosexuality (lesbian or gay)
  • HIV or AIDS status
  • transgender status.
One criteria met
checkbox_checked.png


Public acts could include the following:

  • remarks in a newspaper, journal or other publications
  • remarks on radio or television
  • material on the internet, including social networking sites such as Facebook and micro-blogging services such as Twitter
  • graffiti
  • putting up posters or stickers
  • verbal abuse
  • making speeches or statements
  • making gestures
  • wearing badges or clothes with slogans on them
Two criteria met
checkbox_checked.png


How can I work out if something is covered by vilification law?

To work out whether a particular act is covered by the vilification law, there are three things to check:

  • Did it happen publicly?
  • Was it possible for any member of the public other than those directly involved to see it, hear it or read it?
  • Could it have incited or encouraged hatred, serious contempt or severe ridicule?
  • How serious was it? Would it have had an impact on other people?
  • Is it an acceptable type of free speech and therefore legal?
Four criteria met
checkbox_checked.png


Are there exceptions?

Freedom of speech is also important in our society, so the vilification law makes allowances for this. The following are not against the law:

  • A fair report by the media of someone else's act of vilification. The media will only be acting against the law if they add extra vilifying material or commentary to their report.
  • Acts that are done 'reasonably and in good faith' for academic, artistic, scientific, research or other purposes in the 'public interest'.
  • Material that is privileged, such as statements made in parliament.

Zero exception criteria met
checkbox_crossed.png



Your link doesn't support your claim, it supports mine, and it will be handy for debate on other forums.
Thanks for posting it! :pepper:
 

Dickie E


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Your link doesn't support your claim, it supports mine, and it will be handy for debate on other forums.
Thanks for posting it! :pepper:

That's OK. This isn't a biggest dick competition. If information comes to light that helps us form better views, then let's all share it.

Do you have trouble making & keeping friends?
 

Ian_Cook


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That's OK. This isn't a biggest dick competition. If information comes to light that helps us form better views, then let's all share it.

Of course its not. If just if you are trying make a point, posting something that defeats your point is somewhat careless

Do you have trouble making & keeping friends?

Nope. I have trouble choosing which ones are worth keeping.
 

Dickie E


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Of course its not. If just if you are trying make a point, posting something that defeats your point is somewhat careless

I think we have all been taught and have accepted, haven't we, that if the target feels vilified, then that is vilification, even if others don't see it as such.

The point I have made is that this statement ^^^ is untrue.
 

OB..


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I think we have all been taught and have accepted, haven't we, that if the target feels vilified, then that is vilification, even if others don't see it as such.

The point I have made is that this statement ^^^ is untrue.
I was a Primary School Governor when the Stephen Lawrence murder took place (1993). The subsequent Macpherson Inquiry (1999) devised the following definition:
"A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by thevictim or any other person"
This caused a lot of controversy over some incidents within the school. I had to keep pointing out that this was simply intended to ensure that anything that might be a racist incident would be handled with the appropriate sensitivity until proved otherwise. It is not in itself proof that an incident was racist.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


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Hah, that's funny. Did you actually read that link before you posted it


How can I work out if something is covered by vilification law?

To work out whether a particular act is covered by the vilification law, there are three things to check:

  • Did it happen publicly?
  • Was it possible for any member of the public other than those directly involved to see it, hear it or read it?
  • Could it have incited or encouraged hatred, serious contempt or severe ridicule?
  • How serious was it? Would it have had an impact on other people?
  • Is it an acceptable type of free speech and therefore legal?
Four criteria met
checkbox_checked.png





Your link doesn't support your claim, it supports mine, and it will be handy for debate on other forums.
Thanks for posting it! :pepper:

Ian, this block is not an accurate interpretation of the NSW villification law. That portion of the article has 3 criteria that all must be met.
You have listed two criteria in your block that are sub or defining characteristics of one of the 3 criteria.

Please re read that portion.
 

Ian_Cook


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Ian, this block is not an accurate interpretation of the NSW villification law. That portion of the article has 3 criteria that all must be met.
You have listed two criteria in your block that are sub or defining characteristics of one of the 3 criteria.

Please re read that portion.

Yes, I have formatted incorrectly, but no, the three criteria do NOT have to all be "met", they have to be "checked".

If all three criteria were met then no speech would ever be vilification, because the third and final criteria is a "negative" criteria.


(Try it, answer "YES" to all three questions)

For speech to be vilification the first two questions must be answered "YES" and the third question last question must be answered "NO"

3. "Is it an acceptable type of free speech and therefore legal?"
 
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L'irlandais

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Israel Folau and his legal team appear confident that it is.
"I will continue to stand up for the freedoms of all Australians."
What does he mean by «*all*»?
 
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