No tackling in Schools.....really?

[didds]

Surely the answer then is not to ban school rugby, but to bring school into line with RFU club policies and ensure teachers of rugby are trained and qualified. .

Here's the rub.

PE teachers "teach" many many sports. Very likely at least nine in most secondary schools I'd wager

- rugby union
- cricket
- football
- athletics
- netball
- basketball
- rounders
- softball
- tennis
- volleyball

In't nurth, maybe add a tenth
- rugby league

I appreciate the suggestion is a L1/2 in RU - but where does that elave them wrt other sports.? Are we now 3expecting every PE taecher to have the appropriate level in every sport they cover? [visions of ambulance chasers when jonny breaks an ankle playing volleyball - you are a proper coach in RU, so why did you not do thaty for volleyball and know how jumpers should land properly etc etc yadda yadda]

Its just not feasible - or realistic. That's not an excuse for NOT doing them - its just a pragmatic approach.

Arguably that's a "Level 2" in Engaldn anyway at secondary schools as its the 15 man game of course. So there's two weekends on a course...


And what about the maths teacher that fills in on occassion? etc etc etc

didds

 

[didds]

The only thing I would like the RFU to take from this report is to use it to drag the schools into line.

How? Schools generally don't use/need Marsh's insurance, not do they (directly?) use the local refs society. They exist predominantly if not completely outside of the RFU's umbrella. The RFU has no clout or influence.

didds

 

[didds]

are there really schools where the rugby coaches aren't qualified? If it's your job to coach sport, surely you'd take the appropriate course, isn't it part of the training you do at PGCE?

How many sports should a PE teacher at PGCE gain NGB awards in?

Ten maybe for starters?

- rugby league (ooop nurthh)
- rugby union
- cricket
- football
- athletics
- netball
- basketball
- rounders
- softball
- tennis
- volleyball

What about swimming? triathlon? lacrosse? squash? badminton?

Assuming they could get on all these courses in one year, and assuming "Level 2" (RFU L2 is aimed at the 15 a side game) that's potentially every weekend in that year maybe used up for NGB courses...

didds

 

[didds]

Suspect also related that a lot of schools start with full on 15 aside rugby

Anecdote heard today...

"A story from the recent past (names changed to protect the inncoent). When I was coaching U12s I met one of my parents in town and asked him how his son's introduction to secondary school rugby went. "Great" he said "Jimmy broke a leg and a collar bone. Not his - two other people's. The teacher put them all straight into a full contact practice game and he just played the way that he normally does"."

Maybe that author had a point...

In a perfect world schools and clubs would be together under the RFU, all follwoing the same regs and awards and CPD etc.

But they don't. For some actually valid reasons (including a teacher's quasi-legal remit as a teacher which doesn't always fit that of a coach). And for other reasons its probably impractical to expect PE teachers - let alone ancillary PE staff - to hold suitable and appropriate coaching awards for all the sports they have to cover.

didds

 

[OB..]

How? Schools generally don't use/need Marsh's insurance, not do they (directly?) use the local refs society. They exist predominantly if not completely outside of the RFU's umbrella. The RFU has no clout or influence.

didds

Our schools use our refs society. The ESRFU used to claim it was older than the RFU and could ignore it, but these days they are growing closer together. The schools rep was at our CB Competitions meeting last night, and the Youth Structured Season for next season will include clubs and schools to show when each has precedence. Hallelujah!

 

[didds]

Anecdotally... I've had as many if not more injuries from playing (field) hockey than I did from rugby. I played hockey in effect for about 5 years maximum, rugby for over 30.

go figure.

didds

 

[didds]

Our schools use our refs society. The ESRFU used to claim it was older than the RFU and could ignore it, but these days they are growing closer together. The schools rep was at our CB Competitions meeting last night, and the Youth Structured Season for next season will include clubs and schools to show when each has precedence. Hallelujah!

excellent news OB

I know min Wilts there is closer "union" between schools and local clubs (at least in our immediate neck of the woods) and the CB, but its far from what I see a close knit "thing".

didds

 

[crossref]

How many sports should a PE teacher at PGCE gain NGB awards in?

Ten maybe for starters?

- rugby league (ooop nurthh)
- rugby union
- cricket
- football
- athletics
- netball
- basketball
- rounders
- softball
- tennis
- volleyball

What about swimming? triathlon? lacrosse? squash? badminton?

Assuming they could get on all these courses in one year, and assuming "Level 2" (RFU L2 is aimed at the 15 a side game) that's potentially every weekend in that year maybe used up for NGB courses...

didds

on the contrary if your career is a full time PE teacher I don't think it's unrealistic to have a basic qualification in the sports you coach. (Perhaps not needed if you are still the assistant coach, working under a qualified coach).

 

[dickell]

on the contrary if your career is a full time PE teacher I don't think it's unrealistic to have a basic qualification in the sports you coach. (Perhaps not needed if you are still the assistant coach, working under a qualified coach).

My 13yo grandson in November started at a state comprehensive school in Croydon (previously home educated). This term he and all boys in his year have started rugby. In addition to the keen and apparently knowledgeable member of staff, they have had visits from a qualified RFU coach, wearing RFU kit and driving an RFU car. My observation of said grandson over half-term suggested to me that he is being well-coached in good techniques, including tackling.

 

[didds]

Hmmm... In which case I wold guess at least 90% if not 100% of PE teachers in this country are not meeting that level of expectation.

How are "we" going to change that? Where is the interest coming from? The funding?

Bearing in mind PE teachers' remits are different from that of club coaches.

The schools clearly don't see it as important. the govt clearly doesn't see it as important. NGBs may but have no clout anyway.

Parents? The school children?

Hear's a thought... when do most coaches get top-ups and refreshers for their awards? How often? Most coaches IME probably have a coaching "career" of around a decade. And many fo them once they achieve their "required" award level do no more CD etc. I know there's a voluntary licensing scheme but i'd be intrigued as to how many coaches actively keep that active once their initial three-years-after-award-course period is up. So how up to date do we think a PE teacher that qualified 35 years ago may be?

basically unless the govt make it a requirement its never going to happen. And TBH IMO its not meaningful anyway. I had a PE teacher on a rugby ready course I delivered a couple of years ago. she held SIX NGB coaching awards - and she freely admitted she did it because she was personally interested but some fo the sports she felt was a waste of her time as she probably "coaches" about four hours of that sport per year and as an investment in her own time etc it just wasn't justified
.

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

http://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2010/09/07/crying-wolf-when-media-reports-distort-research-evidence/

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

View attachment 3400

Y'hant been leaving for the last 4 years have yer lad?

Get them on!

Seriously. My son is a teacher (Chemistry) and has a Level 2 coaching qualification for Rugby. He looks after Year 7 RU team at the moment (he is an NQT) on a Saturday. The other year groups are looked after other PE or normal teachers who I'm guessing are not similarly qualified.

And that boys - is how to take a penalty!

 

[didds]

But does he also take hockey, basketball etc?

I would expect a dedicated PE teacher to do so.

didds

 

[crossref]

if you are a chemistry teacher you need to keep up to date with chemistry, with whats in the exams and how to teach it etc.
i would just think that if you are specialist PE instructor you'd want to keep up to date with how to teach PE.
not for the sports that you spend 4 hours a year on, no.

 

[OB..]

I have just been speaking to my U11 grandson (started at U9) and he described the idea as "absolute rubbish". He positively enjoys tackling.

(He also reckons that Jones will start Tuilagi on the bench, bring him on at #12 after 60 minutes or so, replacing Ford with Farrell moving to fly half.)

 

[Rushforth]

Has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allyson_Pollock#Criticism_of_school_rugby been mentioned?

For what its worth, my opinion is that introducing sports in schools is important. However, a wide variety should be introduced, from an even earlier age than 11, and the variety should continue until age 14 or beyond.

That said, I don't think compulsory contact sports should be part of the curriculum for any kids of school age, and furthermore I don't believe that it is or has ever been common for all 18-19 year-old males (upper VI) to play a compulsory season of "up to 15 matches".

Tackling is perhaps best introduced at the age of 8 or 9 in 1v1 situations, and kept limited to 1v1 in schools until the age of 10 or 11. This is the age where kids really start to be of different sizes compared to their classmates.

 

[L'irlandais]

This study of the Top 14 over the previous 3 seasons (185 matches x 3 = 555 games) (555 x 22 match day squad= 12210 individual 80 minutes). With some 2200 serious injuries over three years, means Elite rugby compares better than school,s rugby on the injury front. Cannot be true, since the Elite game has far higher injury rate, surely.

That said I was far more frequently injured over five years of playing club rugby, than I had be in the previous five years doing judo, a combat sport. Sprung ribs, sprained ankles, broken nose, broken wrists, muscle tears, etc Rugby does need to address some safety issues. (Perhaps overall fitness levels come into play?)

 

[didds]

I doubt there is much rugby union player in state schools up to the afe of eleven, and probably close to zero contact rugby union, in England?

Didds

 

[4eyesbetter]

How many sports should a PE teacher at PGCE gain NGB awards in?

Ten maybe for starters?

- rugby league (ooop nurthh)
- rugby union
- cricket
- football
- athletics
- netball
- basketball
- rounders
- softball
- tennis
- volleyball

What about swimming? triathlon? lacrosse? squash? badminton?

Assuming they could get on all these courses in one year, and assuming "Level 2" (RFU L2 is aimed at the 15 a side game) that's potentially every weekend in that year maybe used up for NGB courses...

didds

Rugby in whatever form is one of the more violent and potentially dangerous contact sports available, so yes, I think it's reasonable to expect that teachers should do a sport-specific course before they can teach people how to play it. There simply isn't the same potential risk in tennis or volleyball, and I can see in my mind's eye the herds of lawyers salivating with glee at the thought of running a personal injury claim from e.g. the family of one of the injured in post #24.

 

[didds]

... which is how we end up with stuff being deescalated rather than trainh every single teacher that may ever be asked to cover a rugby PE lesson eg the maths teacher covering on a spare period when the PE teacher is ill. In this regard it would be the adoption of touch/tag rugby to remove the contact and and highly safety orientated technical areas. So we actually end up with getting what this report says is needed.

You can see that frankly it makes sense. "We" may not like it - but its a very simple and effective solution to this litigation/safety area taght doesn;t require additional training and funding.

NB: Touch/tag is an excellent game of course, highly skillful and requiring dexterity and fantastic open play skills in its own right. It lends itself to school sport as it is a simple game to understand and coach/teach, and requires very very little in terms of equipment - especially touch.

"Jumpers for goalposts" anyone?

didds