No winners, no loosers cont'd

[Dickie E]

Donal, well said.

 

[barker14610]

How is the sudying going at this hour?

 

[Donal1988]

Barker I is well busy. 2.55am and I am typing up an essay as we speak. Its my birthday this week turning 21 and I have to work a bit this week too so have to meet my deadlines some way.

Rugby had to take a back seat recently. Decided to take 2 weeks off. Between work, study etc it was bloody tough. Went into a game or two quite tired and handled it very badly and beat myself up a lot over my last performance. I felt that a week or two off the pitch would get my head together and allow me cut up a chunk of my busy schedule.

 

[voice of reason]

While I agree with the sentiment expressed by Ian, I think the faux indignation expressed by many hard-nut types here in NZ (not incl you in this sub-group Ian!!:wink: ) is more in response to perceived Political correctness than what is really the case.
I have coached Junior rugby & cricket for 6 years or so now - I often hear the statement on the sideline or Radio squawk-back - "Kids arent allowed to win these days" - However
I have never actually come across such a situation, whether at club or school level.

My 2 sons (12 & 14) play Cricket, Rugby, Water polo, Athletics, basketball. In every one of their games for the last 6-7 years there were winners & losers, the score has been kept and all the kids knew what it was.

Where the difference is these days is that some leagues or Competition Tables are deemed "Non-Competitive" eg points tables are not kept or published. North Harbour junior rugby is like this for the regular season (although unofficially the clubs keep a tally).

However at the end of each season the best players from each club are picked to represent their clubs in a round robin tournament which is highly competitive.

North Harbour junior Cricket runs a morning comp which is "non-competitive", and boys who want to play but may not be the best can enjoy the game at their own level.
Also it has a junior premier afternoon grade which is competitive and the boys in it are motivated by winning. Some boys play in both
Eg Start @ 8.30am and finish @ 6.30pm - obviously they love cricket!

 

[Dickie E]

and boys who want to play but may not be the best can enjoy the game at their own level.

tell them to stop wasting everyone's time and go & find something they're good at. Perhaps graffitti, drugs, burglary, etc. :wink:

 

[Ian_Cook]

While I agree with the sentiment expressed by Ian, I think the faux indignation expressed by many hard-nut types here in NZ (not incl you in this sub-group Ian!!:wink: ) is more in response to perceived Political correctness than what is really the case.
I have coached Junior rugby & cricket for 6 years or so now - I often hear the statement on the sideline or Radio squawk-back - "Kids arent allowed to win these days" - However
I have never actually come across such a situation, whether at club or school level.

My 2 sons (12 & 14) play Cricket, Rugby, Water polo, Athletics, basketball. In every one of their games for the last 6-7 years there were winners & losers, the score has been kept and all the kids knew what it was.

Where the difference is these days is that some leagues or Competition Tables are deemed "Non-Competitive" eg points tables are not kept or published. North Harbour junior rugby is like this for the regular season (although unofficially the clubs keep a tally).

However at the end of each season the best players from each club are picked to represent their clubs in a round robin tournament which is highly competitive.

North Harbour junior Cricket runs a morning comp which is "non-competitive", and boys who want to play but may not be the best can enjoy the game at their own level.
Also it has a junior premier afternoon grade which is competitive and the boys in it are motivated by winning. Some boys play in both
Eg Start @ 8.30am and finish @ 6.30pm - obviously they love cricket!

VOR. I agree. We don't see this sort of "they're all winners" PC idiocy here., except of course in Netball as I mentioned earier, and that turned out to be an unmitigated disaster for the sport. The abandoned that policy after 5 -6 years, but we are still seeing the effects now.

I do agree with the idea of not keeping a points table, as most 6-9 year olds don't understand the idea anyway. They have no real concept of a long term plan as most of them just play what's in front of them. Try playing a card came like 500 or euchre with a 9 year old. They will try to take every trick, even after you explain that losing a trick along the way can win you the whole game.

tell them to stop wasting everyone's time and go & find something they're good at. Perhaps graffitti, drugs, burglary, etc. :wink:

How cynical! :nono:

 

[voice of reason]

tell them to stop wasting everyone's time and go & find something they're good at. Perhaps graffitti, drugs, burglary, etc. :wink:

Excuse the threadjacking but ....
I'll tell you what the real issue is - Its getting Parents involved in coaching or managing these teams. All to often the same parents who criticise & moan are conspicuously quiet when volunteers are sought. If more Fathers were actively involved in all aspects of their children's upbring then grafitti, dugs etc would not be such a problem

 

[Ian_Cook]

If more Fathers were actively involved in all aspects of their children's upbringing then graffiti, drugs etc would not be such a problem

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Trouble is, too many kids don't have Dads.

 

[dave_clark]

Between work, study etc it was bloody tough.

yeah, must be tough being a student. still, at least Countdown isn't on any more (well, not properly anyway) so that frees up half an hour per day

 

[Simonsky]

Just not being all that bothered about the score until a certain age.

Interestingly, at my reffing level(13-15), at the end of games I'm often surprised at how few of the players come over to me to ask for the score-either they've kept a mental note of it (doubtful) or the Saturday afternoon 'knock-about' is more important. I often watch youth rugby games looking for spirited displays and interesting strategies and have no interest in the result -though you can tell which side is 'better'.

I think it is dodgy extrapolating from the realm of sport to the socio-economic sphere, by the way!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interestingly, at my reffing level(13-15), at the end of games I'm often surprised at how few of the players come over to me to ask for the score-either they've kept a mental note of it (doubtful) or the Saturday afternoon 'knock-about' is more important.

The coach or, if they are kids, a parent will have kept score

What is Level 13, 14, 15? Is that still adult rugby?

 

[dave_clark]

yep, just really really really low level stuff. my club's 5th XV are deemed level 15, and they're rubbish.

 

[Adam]

Believe it or not Im not actually a wild advocator of the policy.

So was I a few months ago until I discussed it with a few people and watched my sisters competing. She competed in a TAG rugby tournament with several primary school clusters* and the groups were based around the clusters, there was no overall winner, but there was a winner for each cluster, who progressed to the next round.

There was no overall winner, but there were several winners from that tournament. I still believe that winning and losing should be part of youth sport from the start, just not a matter of life and death. I know that at home we analyse performances, saying what was done well and what could be improved.

Coaches should place more emphasis on endeavour and commitment at the younger ages, with less emphasis on winning, however, without winning, why put the effort in. As somebody said, 'winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is'.

*cluster=group of primary schools which are all feeder schools for the same secondary school

 

[Dixie]

My club runs a junior tournament in early October (next week actually), and ahead of this we arranged some game time against a traditionally competitive neighbour in another county. Unfortunately, that county arranged a non-standard county day, and so our hosts were shorn of their seven best players.

We played four quarters of rugby, each side rotating players throughout. Loads of tries were scored, far more for us than for them. I didn't keep any score. Both sides knew which was the better team, but our lads were unable to parade a 50-10 drubbing over our neighbour, and the websites of each record it only as a training game. Personally, I am very happy with this outcome, as our lot enjoyed themselves, their lot struggled but stayed in the game, and there's not the joy/despair that a true result would have engendered.

Suck it and see.

 

[Phil E]

Suck it and see.

Dickie E STOP!

No photo's required thanks :nono:

 

[TigerCraig]

I think the rugby union my son plays in (and I ref in) has it right.

Competitive leagues from Under 10 up, BUT, divisions are well graded, and are regraded after 4 games (of a 14 game season).

That way most games are competitive, as teams are playing against others of their own standard.

As an example my sons team (under 11) were original graded in the E's (despite our club nominating them for C's). After winning the first few games by huge scores, they were promoted to C's, went on to make the finals and win the premiership undefeated. Next year they should be in 12B's, where they will find things a bit tougher. Meanwhile, the other E grade teams continued happily on their way with close games.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I think the rugby union my son plays in (and I ref in) has it right.

Competitive leagues from Under 10 up, BUT, divisions are well graded, and are regraded after 4 games (of a 14 game season).

That way most games are competitive, as teams are playing against others of their own standard.

As an example my sons team (under 11) were original graded in the E's (despite our club nominating them for C's). After winning the first few games by huge scores, they were promoted to C's, went on to make the finals and win the premiership undefeated. Next year they should be in 12B's, where they will find things a bit tougher. Meanwhile, the other E grade teams continued happily on their way with close games.

That sort of self & peer assessment for placing in leagues doesn't take place until back end of U16 season ready for U17 in Yorkshire. When #1 son's team were in and won Div 3 (out of 6) we had very competitive games with 3 of 4 oppos. One team lost all their games but honoured the fixtures (good lads), one team were fielding >17s and got kicked out and the other was a team based on a public school who asked if they could come down on a Wednesday night and play the fixtures as the school wouldn't let them play at weekends - "no" we said :nono: (as did others) and they dropped out.

In fact such is the "up to dateness" of the YRFU site - those are still the published leagues.

http://www.yorkshirerfu.co.uk/Yorkshire_Competitions/U17leagues.htm:biggrin:

We beat a Cheshire team in the National U17 bowl/plate then lost in the next round to the team who had come 2nd in Div 3!!?!?!?:sad:

I think U11 is too early and U17 too late for "competitive" Rugby.

15/16 is about right.

The difficulty round here is that some clubs have 40+ boys in each age group whilst smaller L7 L8 L9 clubs' junior sections are dying on their arse.

 

[TigerCraig]

Personally I think Under 11 is a perfect age. But then, that is how we have always played here. We have been brought up on leagues, premierships etc and that is how sport is done.

The concept of tournaments, cups etc doesn't exist here at any level in any sport. This means that you generally don't get minnows playing sharks with consequent huge floggings.

Anyone trying to tell 10 or 11 yar old kids that there is no finals would be laughed at. All kids work for is to "make the semis" (ie the top 4 of the league)

Most clubs have more than one team in an age group so grading is not generally an issue - the big clubs will always have a team in the A's of any age group and then fill downwards. Mine is a small club - usually only 1 team in each age group and only 2 senior teams, so our juniors generally play in the B or C leagues. We try to err on the up side rather than trophy hunt when we nominate.

Gradings are generally pretty well done from Under 11's on as there is prior season form to work off.

As an indication only 7 of 28 premiership grand finals from Under 10E up to Opens (Under 18) this year were decided by more than 7 points.

 

[Dickie E]

Hey Tiger, I'll be up there next year for the Rugby Masters. Will you be involved?

 

[scrumpox2]

My belief is that you allow kids to express their competitive natures but do not feed a coach's ambition for wins. The danger is the coach who wants to win the league not the players who want to win games.

The coach should emphasise endeavour above all and that rewards are reaped from a good performance - personal satisfaction, confidence, team spirit - taking in the variables of the opposition and the ref, results are an outcome of performance.
Playing in leagues places an emphasis on results, on winning over development which is why a structured season must contain friendlies or development fixtures in addition to league matches.

I would always encourage participation in sport over non-participation, that's a no brainer isn't it? One of my key objectives is retention, keeping the fringe players in the squad and interested year on year. What interests me most as a coach though are those players who have a winning mentality. I would be lying if I said anything else. They are up for the challenge and accept defeat as a possible outcome. It bores me rigid when I encounter sports which are not competitive and I'm very uncomfortable dealing with individuals who find defeat defeating.

Within any squad of young players there will be a range of motivations, providing the opportunity to participate satisfies some but you must also allow others to fully express their competitive spirit. The challenge for a coach is to provide a framework that gives motivates and interests everyone in the squad and those who support the squad.

The real enemy of participation is non-participation, for me this debate is centred around a fear of losing as the enemy of participation because a range of motivations isn't recognised or provided for. The participant only wants to play and cares less about the result, the competitor wants the challenge and accepts the potential outcomes.