No Wrap - into Touch

[Patrick]

Got in trouble for lecturing a collage player last weekend at a tournament for shoving a ball carrier into touch.

I do a TON of youth and was informed that men's and collage don't have to abide by no wrap into touch.

At the youth level, this is mandatory over here.

And by no wrap into touch, I mean just full on shoving a ball carrier off the playing field.

I keep thinking safety - probably because of how much I deal with youth.

Thoughts?

 

[buff]

7.1 Playing a match

A match is started by a kick-off.
After the kick-off, any player who is onside may take the ball and run with it.
Any player may throw it or kick it.
Any player may give the ball to another player.
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.
etc.

My bold

 

[menace]

The 'must wrap into touch' in youths seems a silly rule to me. It is probably more dangerous to be heavily tackled with a screaming side on tackle as pace than it is to be shoved into touch? Why is one legal and the other not?

I have seen a few newer referees PK what you describe as they confuse it with law 10.
[LAWS](g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.[/LAWS]
Which is to cover the 'shoulder charge'.

 

[crossref]

The 'must wrap into touch' in youths seems a silly rule to me. It is probably more dangerous to be heavily tackled with a screaming side on tackle as pace than it is to be shoved into touch? Why is one legal and the other not?

I have seen a few newer referees PK what you describe as they confuse it with law 10.
[LAWS](g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.[/LAWS]
Which is to cover the 'shoulder charge'.

There is no IRB u19 variation that makes youth games different from adult ones in this respect , and England no RFU regulation either.

So a player of any age can push a ball carrier into touch, but can't dangerously charge at him.
(other countries of course might have specific youth regs)

 

[ChrisR]

In concept, grasping a player slows him down whereas pushing a player can accelerate them into the man and his dog pitchside.

 

[crossref]

a push is explictly allowed, and isn't necessarily dangerous.
If it WAS dangerous ping him explicitly for dangerous play, clearly an offence in the Law, not for 'pushing' which is explicitly allowed in Law.

(judgement of what is dangerous may well be different at u14 from a L5 mens game)

 

[Simon Thomas]

In concept, grasping a player slows him down whereas pushing a player can accelerate them into the man and his dog pitchside.

Which is why the man and his dog needs to be well away away from the touchline behind a barrier or rope.

 

[Browner]

My fading 'midi' ( ie..@u9-u12) memory says that "shoving into touch" was outlawed in the RFU regs (continuum?) ....... if USA kids regs are similar, maybe that's where his influence was incorrectly coming from.

 

[menace]

In concept, grasping a player slows him down whereas pushing a player can accelerate them into the man and his dog pitchside.

True. But isn't that why the ropes should be some distance from the sideline? (Supposedly, but rarely, 5metres back here in Oz!)

I don't know about you, but I see plenty of grasping legal tackles from side on at pace with both players end up in the floor well beyond the sideline and potentially still well into 'the man and his dog pitch side'.

 

[crossref]

browner you may be well be right. when I said 'of any age' I should have said that I meant from U13 upwards.

u6-u12 is all different and I am not up to speed with the new style of play laws anyway. Obviously you can't push anyone at U6. I have no idea whats allowed at u11 now

 

[crossref]

True. But isn't that why the ropes should be some distance from the sideline? (Supposedly, but rarely, 5metres back here in Oz!)

I don't know about you, but I see plenty of grasping legal tackles from side on at pace with both players end up in the floor well beyond the sideline and potentially still well into 'the man and his dog pitch side'.

when I was about eight, and too close to the touchline at a school 1st XV game I was completely clattered by two heavy U18s one of them tackling the other, at great speed, and the two of them landing on me.

I remember it clearly. I realise now I was lucky and could have been seriously hurt.

No rope in those days. :-(

 

[menace]

I bet you wished that one was just pushed into you rather that 2 fat oafs squashing you. :biggrin:

 

[Patrick]

Crazy interesting stuff guys!

I also do a lot of women's reffing and I see Charging so much more because, I'm guessing, it's a natural instinct to protect your breasts - I get that.

Charging is what I'm going to go with to justify my call at the adult level (as it relates to Touch). (10.4 (g)).

What I've been telling my kids is 'just grab their jersey as you escort them into Touch and I won't call anything'.

(Not that I want to confuse this thread but we also don't allow swinging players around either.)

On our youth discipline system, not a week goes by that several Yellows are given for repeated 'No Wrap Tackle'.

Again, thanks for helping define and talk about this!!!

- Patrick

 

[Browner]

Crazy interesting stuff guys!

I also do a lot of women's reffing and I see Charging so much more because, I'm guessing, it's a natural instinct to protect your breasts - I get that.

Dangerous Charging is what I'm going to go with to justify my call at the adult level (as it relates to Touch). (10.4 (g)).

What I've been telling my kids is 'just grab their jersey as you escort them into Touch and I won't call anything'.

(Not that I want to confuse this thread but we also don't allow swinging players around either.)

On our youth discipline system, not a week goes by that several Yellows are given for repeated 'No Wrap Tackle'.

Again, thanks for helping define and talk about this!!!

- Patrick

Yep...."into touch" and "Pushing" are the Red herrings here ..........Not attempting to grasp is the unlawful action IF a player is charged at or knocked down

I've got ' knocking down' and being 'shoved/pushed' as two different actions in my mind.

. 10.4(g) . [LAWS]

Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.[/LAWS]

 

[Patrick]

'Red herrings' - god, I love herrings - stop it you, now I'm salivating!

10.4 (g) it is - specifically 'without trying to grasp that player'.

Ding, ding, ding - winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I'm goinn' with that.

Thanks guys!

- Patrick

PS
How are you guys doing that cool thing with the law in that cool color and outline and such - come on, you can tell me, I promise not to tell anybody else.....?

 

[RobLev]

...

PS
How are you guys doing that cool thing with the law in that cool color and outline and such - come on, you can tell me, I promise not to tell anybody else.....?

Like this:

[LAWS]
[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

it's the penultimate button on on the little tool bar -- select the text and hit the button

 

[menace]

A lawyers response....

Like this:

[LAWS]
[/LAWS]

A referees response...

it's the penultimate button on on the little tool bar -- select the text and hit the button

 

[menace]

Crazy interesting stuff guys!

I also do a lot of women's reffing and I see Charging so much more because, I'm guessing, it's a natural instinct to protect your breasts - I get that.

Charging is what I'm going to go with to justify my call at the adult level (as it relates to Touch). (10.4 (g)).

What I've been telling my kids is 'just grab their jersey as you escort them into Touch and I won't call anything'.

(Not that I want to confuse this thread but we also don't allow swinging players around either.)

On our youth discipline system, not a week goes by that several Yellows are given for repeated 'No Wrap Tackle'.

Again, thanks for helping define and talk about this!!!

- Patrick

Ultimately you get to decide what dangerous play is, but if you continue to interchange the word 'push' with 'charge' at senior levels just because it's near the sideline, then I'm guessing you'll be having a lot more 'animated discussions' with the coaches (and players).

What rules unions apply at junior levels such as the swinging/slinging tackles (and your US 'must wrap' rule) is to further reduce risk of injury mainly to appease the mums and dads that don't like to see their cherubs get hurt. But rugby is a collision/contact sport and adults play it knowing that risk. You need to apply the senior laws as to what the seniors expect to be applied. They're not kids anymore.

 

[RobLev]

A lawyers response....


A referees response...

Largely because I've always done it by hand ('cos I'd not seen the penultimate button on the little toolbar ), and it should have been obvious when Patrick looked at the message he was replying to.