Not kicking for goal

[Bunniksider]

But a harder feat to get distance from a drop kick as oppopsed to a place kick hence the worry that oppo may get a final phase of play to counter.

 

[OB..]

Why did you not take the kickers intentions?? As it's his intentions that decide the kick at goal, not the captains.

How do you know who the kicker is?

Captain: "We'll go for goal."
Player who has taken all the kicks so far: "I don't want to. I don't think I can make it."
Captain: "You're not the kicker this time."

In practice if it is clear there is a dispute within the team, get the captain to sort it out.

 

[FlipFlop]

Had 2 scenarios this weekend that fall into this category.

1) PK is taken and it curls away from the posts. Never looks like going through. Lands right where the only 2 chasers are. Defending team make a real mess of it (try to fly hack it into touch and miss - rather than falling on it). Chasers fall no the ball and score 5 points. I'm sceptical about the kick at goal, but given the wind, let it stand. The kicker then missed the easier conversion - so I think I was justified. But it did run through my head.....

2) Just before Half time, 5m inside blue half. PK to Blue. No time to take a LO etc. Main kicker, another player and captain argue about intent. Main kicker says too far, other player says possibly not with the wind, captain really wants to kick it. So I ask the captain for his intentions. To the dismay of his kicker - he says posts. No-one argued with me asking the captain for his decision. Other player took the kick, didn't have the distance. White kicked it dead for half time.

I understand Robbie's point (and the law) but the kicker is not a defined position in the team. If there are options I always (or try to) ask the captain. So I don't select an option based on the tired forward who wants a rest etc. Never had a problem or complaint about wanting the captain to make the decision.

 

[Donal1988]

A blue player right behind me says, "kick at goal please Sir". . . .This player says "excuse me Sir, can you ask the Captain next time, that player (points to blue who asked for kick) is not the Captain and can't make that decision.". . .I say "Someone in your team says "kick please", then you are kicking. If you only want the Captain to make that decision then you need to look at your own team discipline, not to me."

To be honest Phil I think thats harsh. Captain is only one who talks to referee. Only 2 weeks ago I had a team losing by 4 points with 8 minutes to go with a penalty 10m out. Kicker rushes forward shouting "we'll take the points" I ignore him look at captain and ask for his decision. He decides on a scrum instead. Far as I am concerned only time the captain doesnt make that call is if there is a quick tap.

 

[Phil E]

To be honest Phil I think thats harsh. Captain is only one who talks to referee. Only 2 weeks ago I had a team losing by 4 points with 8 minutes to go with a penalty 10m out. Kicker rushes forward shouting "we'll take the points" I ignore him look at captain and ask for his decision. He decides on a scrum instead. Far as I am concerned only time the captain doesnt make that call is if there is a quick tap.

My thoughts were, if you only want the captain to make the decsions, then make sure only the captain voices them. Your monkey not mine.

 

[Donal1988]

I dunno it surely doesnt take much effort to look at captain and get his opinion. Dont really see the reason for such a hard stance. It seems to be unnecessarily awkward on the team and surely we arent there to make life tough on the teams. We use common sense.

 

[Phil E]

I dunno it surely doesnt take much effort to look at captain and get his opinion. Dont really see the reason for such a hard stance. It seems to be unnecessarily awkward on the team and surely we arent there to make life tough on the teams. We use common sense.

What about when the captain is the winger on the far side of the pitch?
Are you going to trot over to him or wait for him to trot over to you every time a decision needs to be made?

 

[Donal1988]

Like I say it doesnt take much effort to look toward captain and give a gesture to him. He will invariably point to touch line or posts or else shout on that he wants a scrum.

I think your way of managing it will simply lead to more players talking out of turn and shouting out what they want. Its surely easier to clearly demonstrate its you and the captain.

 

[Robert Burns]

OB,

I agree with the reality of life, and we would all accept the captains choice as being good enough, and I doubt many would disagree. But I'm sure there is a perfectly good reason why the law specifically says the kicker chooses, and not anyone else, and it's probably because of exactly this.

Captain wants to kick, and kicker says he can't get it, dispute happens, either the captain goes for it, or he agrees with his kicker. Most captains if their kicker said they couldn't do it wouldn't argue with them...but most isn't all!

So, in law Phil E, yes you were wrong because the law clearly states the kicker, not the captain. Is anyone really going to complain to you about it? I doubt it.

OB, How do you know he's the kicker? as we are talking mainly about last minute kicks, you would know who had been kicking, but basically the guy standing next to you with the ball in his hand is going to be the kicker. Maybe a simple question "Are you the kicker?". If a yes, then that's good enough.

 

[Davet]

Donal - I would disagree with you.

PK awarded, someone on that teams says "we'll go for goal", opposition relax and wander back, scrum half taps and goes, saying "he wasn't the captain, what he said doesn't count..."

No. I'm with PhilE - their problem not mine - I don't know if the player making the call has been delegated to do so when the Captain is over on the far wing or what. They call it that's what we do. If the player wasn't authorised then, "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

 

[Phil E]

So, in law Phil E, yes you were wrong because the law clearly states the kicker, not the captain.

Law reference please Robert?

If a kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick a penalty kick at goal, the
kick must be taken within one minute from the time the player indicates the intention to
kick at goal.

This does not state that the kicker and only the kicker can indicate a kick at goal. It merely says "IF".

By contrast a scrum alternative.....

Scrum alternative. A team awarded a penalty or free kick may choose a scrum instead.
They throw in the ball.

Note it says "a team may choose", not the kicker, not the captain, not the LHP, but the team.

 

[Donal1988]

I dont know. I dont mean any offence but it seems to me to be really just being awkward for the sake of it. I dont see what is achieved only inconveniencing one of the teams and negating the role of captain. When I give a penalty I look to captain and he usually signals without delay. It is consistent and makes perfect sense to me that captain tells referee the teams decision. Its not about making it "your problem" its just establishing that the captain talks to the referee.

 

[Davet]

And what would you do if the 9 taps and goes when the opposition has been fooled...

It's not being awkward at all - you are simply accepting their decision.

If no-one said anything and the 9 tapped and went, would you call him back till the captain had made a decision, or would you treat him as the kicker, and therefore one who has not elected to kick for posts?

If the player who says posts is holding the ball, or is close to the mark would you not simply assume he is either the kicker or authorised to make the call?

Just keep it simple, and let them worry about who makes what decision.

 

[crossref]

when I offer options (scrum or line etc)
- if back comes a single clear response, I accept it whoever said it.
- if five players all talk at once I say 'whoa, ... captain?'

at a penalty
- I would accept either of, and only, the customary kicker or the captain telling me he was going for posts. And either of those two I would view as binding. But if some random prop said 'posts sir' I would ignore him and check with captain....

ALTHOUGH
- if a random prop said, loudly, 'posts sir' and then the SH took a tap... I would definitely blow my whistle... and then think carefully about what to give

 

[Davet]

But if some random prop said 'posts sir' I would ignore him and check with captain....

Some random prop who MAY be the one whose going to kick..?

I hope you're not being propist

 

[crossref]

yes, at sevens actually that's not even a silly idea - as often there will be no established kicker + rolling subs so different people on the field, so truly any of them might be going to take the next kick.

 

[didds]

... and for a PK in the 12st minute of a match you may not even know who the "normal" kicker is.

didds

 

[Adam]

... and for a PK in the 12st minute of a match you may not even know who the "normal" kicker is.

didds

Which is the 12st minute of a match? :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

i guess in real life there is a lot of shades and context..
"I am having a shot" is pretty definitive decision, whoever says it.
"we'll be going for posts" ... more ambiguous.

 

[didds]

Which is the 12st minute of a match? :biggrin:

just after the 11nd.

;-)

didds

ps I meant 1st minute etc :-0