Not taking the advantage

[taff426]

Whilst giving my pre match brief Wednesday night I was explaining to the Yellow Scrum Half how I would allow him to take a quick tap etc during the match. He then asked me if I was happy for him to throw the ball to the ground if he didn't want the advantage if yellows were given a penalty. He explained that in the past when he has done this he has had the penalty reversed againt him for deliberatly knocking the ball on .

I know that TECHNICALLY as per the LoTG he isn't supposed to do it, however, I allowed him to do this, as in my opinion, it would be harsh to reverse the Penalty for such a trivial offence which would have no real material effect on the game.

What are your opinions on this please?:Nerv:

 

[Davet]

Referees should not penalise a player for deliberate knock on in this sort of circumstance, it is far too jobsworth and makes us appear to have no real understanding of the game.

However, it is probably not a good way for a player to signal they would like the penalty - if they simply place the ball on the floor it and look at the ref it might be less irritating to referees. I suspect that there some among our number (present company excepted, of course) who might then claim they have played the ball as they wished and rule advantage over. I hope I never see such a referee....:norc:

 

[Tryer]

Why not just allow the player to tell you if they don't want the advantage? ie. Ref: penalty advantage yellow, green in at the side. Yellow 9: we'll take the penalty sir.

 

[Iron_Lung]

I've had both methods used in game. One was the player bouncing the ball, the second was the player calling "penalty sir" if they wanted to take it. I'm happy to accept that and the other team weren't fussed either. If the other team were particularly incensed by the player dropping the ball and not being penalised, you could have a quiet word to the captain and let him know that if they want the penalty instead of the advantage then the player with the ball can call it out.

Why penalise when you can manage?

 

[Taff]

Why not just allow the player to tell you if they don't want the advantage? ie. Ref: penalty advantage yellow, green in at the side. Yellow 9: we'll take the penalty sir.

When I was a TJ last season I heard a ref say "Knock on by Blue ...... do you want the advantage Red?" It seamed to work a treat. Similarly, when playing advantage I've heard captains shout "We'll take the scrum sir". Would I penalise a SH for a deliberate knock on as described? No - its seems a bit harsh and I would suggest that throwing the ball down is now probably generally accepted as a way of turning down the available advantage, in preference for the original sanction. Isn't it?

 

[Agustin]

Could he just throw the ball backwards?

 

[didds]

Could he just throw the ball backwards?

exactly the question i was about to ask!

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

Not the same effect as the referee COULD play on. knocking it forces the referee to blow the whistle.

 

[chopper15]

Isn't the ball dead until the ball holder kicks or taps it with his foot?:Nerv:

 

[Agustin]

Not the same effect as the referee COULD play on. knocking it forces the referee to blow the whistle.

Sure, but advantage is not gained.

 

[SimonSmith]

But if he rolls it backwards towards, say, a player who can pick it up, the possibility for it to be gained still exists. Knocking it forwards forces the referee to blow his whistle.

Backwards still means that the referee can use judgement and continue to play advantage. Why run that risk?

 

[didds]

Isn't the ball dead until the ball holder kicks or taps it with his foot?:Nerv:

the PK hasn't actually been awarded yet - advantage is being played, which the s/h wants to somehow negate.

didds

 

[Agustin]

But if he rolls it backwards towards, say, a player who can pick it up, the possibility for it to be gained still exists. Knocking it forwards forces the referee to blow his whistle.

Backwards still means that the referee can use judgement and continue to play advantage. Why run that risk?

Yep, it's not a big deal. As long as the communication channel is open between the captain and the ref, it should all work out well.

What I don't get is why the player wouldn't just try something, even if it's only running forward with the ball to see how far he could get. What's the worst that could happen?

 

[Dickie E]

What's the worst that could happen?

Ref calls 'advantage over' a nano-second before HE knock on

 

[The Fat]

At the pre-match talk when the SH asks the question, why not simply tell to him to play to the whistle? The concept of playing advantage is to help create a free flowing continuous game.
The players are there to play the game, the ref to facilitate/manage the game.

 

[Simon Thomas]

It isn't complicated chaps, FAT has it spot on -

Player perspective :

If SH or any other player does not want the advantage (tactical decision) then they communicate it to the referee,

either by telling him - loudly, cos some silly old duffers don't appear to hear sometimes

or by bouncing the ball forwards to create a technical throw forward (I was coached to put ball down to knees, bounce it forwards gently and catch - this was due to some referees missing it or not giving it, so ball retention is crucial).

Referee / Assessor Perspective :

if you don't want the advantage tell me (or show me if too much background nosie or I am not listening). I do not include it in a pre-match brief, they are long enough already.

 

[Davet]

What I don't get is why the player wouldn't just try something, even if it's only running forward with the ball to see how far he could get. What's the worst that could happen?

At lower levels it may because they don't trust the refs judgement about what constitues advantage.

At a higher level then if the 9 get possession after a penalty offence he may be under some pressure from the offenders. If the ref can be made to blow quickly rather than look for advantage then he suddenly gets a 10m clear space to work in from a quick tap an go - immediately removing pressure and gaining space to work in whilst protected.

 

[upnunder]

I TJd for a level 5 Referee who told the SH in his pre match brief that if he was given advantage and didnt want it, tell the referee and he will be allowed to go quickly.
If he threw the ball to ground, he would still get the PK, but the mark would be made very slowly, negating his quick advantage.

 

[Davet]

Now that sounds like a ref who simply doesn't like the ball being thrown down and is giving vent to his own personal ideosynchratic views.:nono: Very poor.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I TJd for a level 5 Referee who told the SH in his pre match brief that if he was given advantage and didnt want it, tell the referee and he will be allowed to go quickly.
If he threw the ball to ground, he would still get the PK, but the mark would be made very slowly, negating his quick advantage.

I look forward to the day that I assess that L5 referee and we will have an interesting post-match de-brief on his management style.

His sort of attitude is not going to get good management / empathy reports from me, so he will not progress to Panel or stay at L5 very long !