[Line out] Offside at LO - change in law?

[Rich_NL]

As I learnt it and understand it, the 10m offside line for non-participating players at a line-out lasts until the lineout is over - ball passed out or maul past the LoT. Looking in the lawbook today, I see law 18.36:

"Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward."

Did I miss something, or am I misreading?

 

[crossref]

It refers to long throws -- the full wording is
[LAWS]Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward. If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines.[/LAWS]

In the olden days it used to be worded like this (which was much clearer)

Long throw in. If the player who is throwing in throws the ball beyond the 15-metre line, a
player of the same team may run forward to take the ball as soon as the ball leaves the
hands of the player throwing in. If that player does so, opponents may also run forward. If a
player runs forward to take a long throw in, and the ball is not thrown beyond the 15-metre
line, this player is offside and must be penalised.

Aside: interesting that in the old days it was one player who might move forward, now it's any number of players - that's a change I never noticed before. That rewrite is a gift that just keeps giving

 

[Phil E]

As I learnt it and understand it, the 10m offside line for non-participating players at a line-out lasts until the lineout is over - ball passed out or maul past the LoT. Looking in the lawbook today, I see law 18.36:

"Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward."

Did I miss something, or am I misreading?

Yes you did.

You didn't quote the whole law. This only applies to throws over 15m.

[LAWS]Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward. If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines.[/LAWS]

 

[Rich_NL]

Thanks for the replies, my mistake. It was the combination of 18.35 (setting the 10m line) followed by "once the ball..." that I read as consecutive, rather than 18.36 being a special case.

 

[thepercy]

I have noticed some teams using this tactic on their defensive 5M LOs. They only have to run 5M to catch the long throw, the attacking team have to run from 10M.

 

[timmad]

I have noticed some teams using this tactic on their defensive 5M LOs. They only have to run 5M to catch the long throw, the attacking team have to run from 10M.

Risk and reward. Reward is quick possession for the defending team. Risk - a non-straight throw (not including the type Showbiz refs allow) giving an attacking scrum 5m from the try line and 15m in from touch.

 

[didds]

I have noticed some teams using this tactic on their defensive 5M LOs. They only have to run 5M to catch the long throw, the attacking team have to run from 10M.

yes... its been a long standing tactic but I suspect not seen as much the further down the ladder one plays/refs/watches as the skill levels etc may lead to a wonky throw and a turn over. that said i see it reasonably often at L7 in RFUland.

didds

 

[crossref]

so no one else interested in the change from previously allowing only ONE player to run forward as the ball is thrown (to catch it) and now allowing ALL players to come forward as the ball is thrown ?

Wonder why they made that change Is it better like that ? worse?

 

[didds]

my guess its a change

* to reflect what was happening anyway
* somebody realsied that "one" was a presumption way back in the 19th century when it was first included (or whatever).
* its a deliberate simplification so a ref isnt having to add one more thing to consider if it was one or two or five, or the second player actually took one step forward, realised his mate was doing it, so stepped back etc etc etc

Perm any or all of the above

 

[Rich_NL]

Maybe to remove the ambiguity of "a player" meaning "any player" or "one player" (although "that player" later implies they had a specific case in mind).

For example, 6.14: "The referee may alter a decision after a touch judge or an assistant referee has raised the flag to signal touch, touch-in-goal or an assistant referee has signalled foul play" does that imply that the referee may not alter a decision if both ARs signal foul play?

I can't see a particular reason to limit it to one, that seems more likely than the 12-year-old overlooking possibilities.

 

[crossref]

Maybe to remove the ambiguity of "a player" meaning "any player" or "one player" (although "that player" later implies they had a specific case in mind).

For example, 6.14: "The referee may alter a decision after a touch judge or an assistant referee has raised the flag to signal touch, touch-in-goal or an assistant referee has signalled foul play" does that imply that the referee may not alter a decision if both ARs signal foul play?

I can't see a particular reason to limit it to one, that seems more likely than the 12-year-old overlooking possibilities.

No - there was no ambiguity - the old Law very specifically said
- one single player could move forward
- and not just just move forward either - he had to move specifically to take the ball.

2016 LAW BOOK - long throw in. If the player who is throwing in throws the ball beyond the 15-metre line, a
player of the same team may run forward to take the ball as soon as the ball leaves the
hands of the player throwing in. If that player does so, opponents may also run forward. If a
player runs forward to take a long throw in, and the ball is not thrown beyond the 15-metre
line, this player is offside and must be penalised.

The current Law is also very clear with no ambuigity : multiple players may simply move forward

It cannot be an accidental change, but I am scratching my head as to why bother

 

[Phil E]

Because if you read the old law it was one player from the throwing in team but ALL the players from the other team (opponents in plural).

Saying any player makes it more equitable.

 

[crossref]

Because if you read the old law it was one player from the throwing in team but ALL the players from the other team (opponents in plural).

Saying any player makes it more equitable.

good spot

 

[tim White]

If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines.[/LAWS]

OK, so if the ball does not go 15m and no Backs player of either team retires -and then the ball ends up in their hands (it happens), who do you penalise? You are supposed to penalise someone because they are all offside. Maybe you apply materiality or manage it?

 

[Dickie E]

OK, so if the ball does not go 15m and no Backs player of either team retires -and then the ball ends up in their hands (it happens), who do you penalise? You are supposed to penalise someone because they are all offside. Maybe you apply materiality or manage it?

could be interesting. Hooker throws in, backs sprint up. Before they have a chance to retire, ball is tapped back by lineout jumper to SH. Lineout is now over so offside line is the ball :shrug:

 

[didds]

could be interesting. Hooker throws in, backs sprint up. Before they have a chance to retire, ball is tapped back by lineout jumper to SH. Lineout is now over so offside line is the ball :shrug:

compare and contrast ruck/maul/scrum where backs move into an offside position and before they retire the ball comes out of the ruck/maul/scrum?

didds

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines.[/LAWS]

OK, so if the ball does not go 15m and no Backs player of either team retires -and then the ball ends up in their hands (it happens), who do you penalise? You are supposed to penalise someone because they are all offside. Maybe you apply materiality or manage it?

Manage it, would be my first option, especially if both teams encroach. Peep and reset the line with a warning.

 

[crossref]

Manage it, would be my first option, especially if both teams encroach. Peep and reset the line with a warning.

You are misquoting me, I did not ask that question

 

[Rich_NL]

could be interesting. Hooker throws in, backs sprint up. Before they have a chance to retire, ball is tapped back by lineout jumper to SH. Lineout is now over so offside line is the ball :shrug:

They're offside until they get back/are put onside, no?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

They're offside until they get back/are put onside, no?

put onside by the opposition